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oldcopper
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Posts posted by oldcopper
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1 minute ago, Rob said:I remember being at the Baldwin's sale when he bought the P1236. He was sat in the middle, front row and I was by the window with Mick Martin behind. When he bid twice what we both thought was reasonable, we looked at each other and thought 'who is this geezer?' We both said at the time, we aren't going there. Rare coin though and the first time either of us had seen one.
I think it went for £440 on checking my catalogue, and it went for £900 this time. I quite fancied it but dropped out at £800, beautiful green toning and only one other known according to Martin's survey. Of course I didn't even give it a second glance at that Baldwins sale.
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24 minutes ago, Rob said:Not sure about that. He only had 14 1797 pieces whereas Colin had 44 lots.
With the gold penny you are at the mercy of when one appears.
And Colin had all the patterns as well, very comprehensive. It may be that as Ian Sawden only collected the majority of this stuff in a 3 or 4 year window in general about 10 years ago, so he just got hold of as nice stuff as possible that (a) was available at the time, and (b) that he wasn't outbid on. So quite an achievement in that brief timespan.
I'm surprised he got so much of his stuff from London Coins if he lived abroad, because they don't have online bidding, so he would have had to get someone to bid for him each time, unless he was temporarily living in the UK at the time. Still he certainly scored with those florin patterns, many bought from LC!
One thing he did miss out on (unless he bought and sold it) was the lot immediately following the gilt twopence in the DNW 2010 sale. This was the lustrous currency 2d which went for £850 hammer. It then turned up at Heritage Auctions 6 months later slabbed as an MS66 RB (despite a noticeable depression in the field on the obverse) and fetched > $7000!
Now why didn't I bid on that......
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Fantastic stuff and curious why Ian Sawden limited his Soho collection to pre-1800, so no 1805 patterns or proofs etc of the 1806/7 issue. Was it personal preference? Excepting the 1780 Droz halfpennies and proofs of similar template to currency pieces, there were few distinctive patterns either, especially pennies - just one helmeted Britannia and one large head 1797 cartwheel penny (and that a restrike) for instance.
The 1831 .W.W. went for nearly £1500 all in! One of the nicer ones of course, but still relatively marked compared to the better examples of the main varieties. Mine has an interesting raised die flaw above the last reverse colon, have seen it occasionally elsewhere. Here's LC's only photographed example of another one (not mine):
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9 hours ago, kal said:here is the last page
I wonder who won lot 101, did it carry on to the next page? "Cards" must have meant something else, as gilding them seems a little excessive!
Anyone got any bronzed envelopes?
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21 hours ago, Martinminerva said:I thought these were a famous Peck "miss" ? Certainly not in his original book - 1882 he logs as numbers 1726 - 1729 and all have an H mint mark. Or did he pass comment in a later work??
It's in his BNJ 1967 Addendum:
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4 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:That may well have been the one we discussed. There's certainly no trace whatever of any underlying disturbance.
Another interesting question arising, is whether the no H pennies were produced at the London Mint. Or at the Heaton Mint and one or two errant dies minus the H were produced, but given the extreme rarity, quickly identified. Or maybe both for different reasons. One intentional, the other an accidental omission.
Peck thought the RM produced them in December of that year, as the Mint had been closed for 10 months from Feb for reconstruction, as a small issue to "tide over till the following year".
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6 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:It is, yes. Obverse 11 + reverse M. So you should be able to see whether it's legit or not anyway.
yes, that would be a reassurance!
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16 hours ago, 1949threepence said:Definitely in that condition. Of course the great thing about it being in that mint state is that you know immediately the H hasn't been worn or tooled away.
Isn't it a unique die combination as well for an 1882 penny? Excuse my ignorance as I haven't got any coin book to hand.
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On 10/2/2021 at 11:42 PM, Iannich48 said:That is the oldest auction catalogue that i have seen. Very Interesting.
Yes, amazing to think people would have still been alive who lived through the issue of some of these coins.
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24 minutes ago, secret santa said:Can someone provide me with a link to this article please. I have just uploaded photos of almost all the J Moore patterns to my varieties website.
https://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital BNJ/pdfs/2011_BNJ_81_7.pdf
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11 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:Possibly because bronzing copper made more sense than bronzing bronze?
Only to avoid confusing words! - it's strange how the term "bronzing" came to be used, as it looks nothing like bronze, and the coating presumably has nothing in common with bronze either (ie no tin or zinc, which would yellow it). Perhaps it could have been a more general term back then for adulterated copper?
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8 hours ago, Rob said:That will be the Weyl patterns. As I wrote in the article about 10 years ago, I think they are mostly unique with the exception of the aluminium pieces documented in the Murdoch sale. There was also an 1887 (unspecified metal) penny listed in the bronze and copper section of the Cholmley sale in 1902 which I found after publication. This sale took place less than a month before Murdoch died, and it may or may not be the same as the one that was sold in the latter's sale. Whatever, it debunks the theory that the Weyl patterns were struck especially for Murdoch, as it is inconceivable he would have disposed of something produced uniquely for him whilst keeping the rest.
Freeman also omits those struck in tin.
I downloaded your article sometime back - excellent and very comprehensive. No copyright fees I hope! And I see you're in the DNW Hall of Fame with several mentions in the Ian Sawden collection.
Talking of which, that's a steep estimate for the Weyl copper milled edge penny. £3-4K. And the premium etc for this auction is effectively a third as there's import duty as well. So £4-5+K in reality. Fantastic looker though as are all of his Weyls.
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On 9/24/2021 at 11:49 AM, Rob said:Both Taylor and Moore were producing bronzed pieces up to the mid-1880s. The process has to be the same as for medals, or for that matter, mint toned farthings and pennies. The colour differences will probably be down to the list of solution ingredients.
Yes, Dolley quoted someone in a paper who referred to a "purple solution" that had been used at Soho to immerse the blanks in to produce this bronzed finish. It's surprising that no official bronzed proof coins have been made since the mid 19th century, given that that was the finish of choice for the first half of the 19th century. I wonder why they went off it?
I've got a P1335 1806 penny which looks identical in appearance to Taylor's golden bronze finish - this series (KP33 or 34?) is also plain edge and in a range of metals on rusted usually underweight blanks from over-polished dies. So some pointers to non-Soho restrikes perhaps, though the gilding on the gilt specimen in Gregory II was good quality, and the bronzed one in Gregory I (which I also have ex Alderney) is far more bronzed-looking (ie dark chocolate) in the traditional fashion though.
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42 minutes ago, Mr T said:What is the process for bronzing a copper coin?
I think the secret died in the 19th century, and no official bronzed proofs have been made after 1867 (though some say some 1877 farthings are bronzed - that would need to be seen in the flesh.
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40 minutes ago, secret santa said:Today, from nowhere, my browsers have virtually slowed to a halt. When typing from the keyboard, each character takes at least a second to appear on the screen.
There is not a problem typing into a Word document. Similarly, it takes several seconds to open a new tab in either Chrome or Edge.
The scroll wheel on the mouse is similarly delayed in action which makes the sizing of images on a web page impossible.
A broadband check shows that speed is unaffected.
The PC has become unusable.
Any advice out there ?
Have you checked it for bugs?
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47 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:Is that the finest known 1882 no H ? I've never seen one anywhere near that good.
Look back in the thread. This one's a MS64BN, but Jackson's (Spink USA 2014) looked more lustrous and was MS64RB from memory. So comparable at least. I wonder if either of them is Noble's mint state coin referred to by Peck, sold 1973.
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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:Dont know if you have looked at the Ian Sawden collection for sale at DNW ,interesting collection 👍
Yes, I was going to mention that as well! Looks like the Autumn sales are suddenly looking a lot better on the copper front, but I don't know how reasonable the prices will be - have to wait and see on that one.
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5 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:Yes your right Pete ,it isnt the Jackson coin.
The picture i used was the grading companies photograph ,Baldwin have done there own picture and with the magnifier on the website will be much better to give a true picture.
I think considering how difficult it has been to get stock for auctions of such rarity and high grade they have done a fantastic job putting such a good sale together.
A couple of nice rare farthings and a realistically priced estimate 1860 copper penny also i believe.
Thanks Pete, sounds like they've got some nice coins there. I'll check it out.
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No, I think it's different having just checked. The Jackson coin (17th June 2014, lot 1053) went for $21,000, didn't have the small spot in front of the neck, and looked more lustrous as well, though often difficult to tell from photography (it was graded MS64RB).
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On 9/7/2021 at 8:29 PM, PWA 1967 said:A couple of high grade for type pennies in the next Baldwin Auction on 6th October.
The coins are not mine but have permission to share the picture of this one ,i believe the full auction will be online Thursday night / Friday morning if you are registered.
Alternatively pre - register online or phone up for the hard copy catalogue ,if you are interested.
I wonder if that's the Gerald Jackson example sold Spink USA in 2014.
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On 9/4/2021 at 7:02 AM, Mr T said:Ouch! Someone is going to make big loss at some point.
I thought they removed the old one if you sent in the old slab or the bit of paper in it when resubmitting?
In this case it was deslabbed, "enhanced" and then submitted (as basically a new coin).
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45 minutes ago, alfnail said:Well spotted Pete, the lighhouse is thinner, especially the top section..........and the sea does not cross the linear circle!
and the drapery is correct.
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I've just checked and the illustration of the pre-enhanced version of the 1770 proof halfpenny ex Gregory has now been removed from the PGCS website. It was PR65RB, but only one different one is now shown in that classification. It is now PR65+BN, so I suppose it has gained a plus but lost the RB designation, in my opinion a downgrade. A little spot on the neck was a useful pointer. The old version will still be on the CNG archive on sixbid early to mid 2018
So why did they remove it, was it at the behest of the dealer who enhanced it, and didn't want anyone finding out? it would be interesting to see PCGS's reason for removing it from their site, not that they'd ever give it of course.
I'm not saying the third party grading services are dishonest, in the main I'm sure they're very professional, but it's only going to be human nature to push slightly up rather than down if there's wiggle room for an important client This is easier to do as the grade difference at present doesn't have to be very much to make all the difference to the price, especially in the upper echelons. And all those extra classifications and increments on top of the number grades are just more subjectiveness - cameo, ultra cameo, plus, plus plus, gold star etc etc and are designed to create extra bigger price tiers and value. And it's working.
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23 hours ago, azda said:Dave is the name lol. Who is buying, well there is a Greek guy who has some high grade halves, I believe he would have been involved in this bidding, whether he got it or not is another story.
The craving for high slab numbers is ridiculous right now, fuelled by certain people on YT and Heritage marketing. I get the feeling this side of the market is rigged. I knew a guy who paid 10k for a Geo IIII proof half Sov, Heritage wanted him to consign it, he had got it graded and came back as the finest but not Cameo designated, he said he felt it was Ultra cameo or wards to that effect, he said if it was graded as such that he would submit it.
Heritage sent it off to NGC and low and behold it came back as the Ultra Cameo he and Heritage asked for, it sold for $26,400, the hype for high grade half Sovereigns right now is real.
There's more incentive to upgrade by even a bit if there's a large financial incentive to do it. This is the problem when the market become overly grade influenced. And people who use the grading services more often will get more leeway, as they are pumping more money into the grading service. It's I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine - in other words a racket.
I've mentioned before about some companies breaking coins out of slabs to get them hopefully graded higher. It can backfire occasionally. One company took a beautiful 1770 proof halfpenny (ex Gregory 1, May 2006 originally later ex JJ Kern CNG 2018), then "enhanced" it and it came back a grade lower! Unlucky! Why they even thought of enhancing it I don't know, the slab needed replacing of course but the coin from my memory was stunning. And both versions of the coin were on the PCGS website as well last time I looked!
Talking of silly prices $15,600 for a PR66 BN 1839 proof penny, there's a bit of discolouration around the truncation as well:
DNW auction today - The Ian Sawden collection
in British Coin Related Discussions & Enquiries
Posted
Yes, it's a fantastic example as they go, but as you say far too marked to justify that grade. It was the jackpot for someone!
It would have been nice to get some background info on S. Burchall, whose 200-year-old collection this was. DNW didn't reveal his name when they originally auctioned his coins, so why now? I will ask them the next time I see them.