French coin?

[Guest Andy Mc.]

Can anyone identify the following coin please?

Almost exactly the same size as a current 5p coin, very thin (approx 3rd to half of a mm) and Copper coloured.

I would have expected it to bend easily if it's copper, but it doesn't!

On one side is a 3 headed rose with a couple of leaves at the base of the stalk

(Although I suppose it could be a thistle of some description)

Most of the text around the edge on this side is illegible but I could possibly identify a few odd letters.

On the other side is what appears to be a lion rampant facing to the left and maybe wearing a crown.

Around the right hand edge of this side is "FRAN..." Could be FRANCE?

The last letter on the top left hand edge may be an "X".

Thanks in advance,

Andy

[Chris Perkins]

That's not a lot to go on Andy, you may have to register and post an image of it.

At one stage the Kings/Queens of England stated that they were King/Queen of France too, as England had Northern French territories, but the Fran probably means it's French, we need more details.

[Guest mish]

Your coin sounds like a Scottish copper twopence or penny. This coin type was issued initially in 1614 following James VI's accession to the English throne 11 years earlier. The obverse bears a three-headed thistle. The legend begins on the obverse with IACOBVS . DEI . GRA . MAG . BRIT and continues on the reverse with FRANCIAE . ET . HIBERNIE . REX ." which translates as James, by the Grace of God, king of Great Britain, France and Ireland. The reverse bears the Scottish emblem of a crowned lion rampant. The twopence measures about 17-18mm. across and the penny measures about 12-13mm.

A further issue of both coins was made in 1623 with a slight legend change. Yet another issue appeared during the reign of Charles I in 1629 (with the name IACOBVS changed to CAROLVS).

The twopence piece was also known as a Turner (probably after the French double tournois - the name applied to a two denier piece in that country) or Bodle (apparently named after a Scottish mintmaster called Bothwell).

From your description of the mostly illegible legends, I would guess that your coin is probably in around Very Good condition numismatically speaking (a euphemism for being in a rather worn state, as is common for these much-used lower denomination coins). In this condition, its value is about £12 if a twopence, or about £15 if a penny. The exception is the 1629 penny (the only one to bear the name CAROLUS), which is rare and not therefore valued in Krause and Mischler's Standard Catalog of World Coins.

[Chris Perkins]

Well there we are, thanks for sorting that one out mish.

Did you see my list of condor tokens in the British area? You have the book on those too don't you?

[Guest Andy Mc.]

Wow, thanks Mish.

It seems quite likely that it's the twopence judging by the size.

I should also mention that I inherited it from my Scottish grandparents and there was also a Copper Bawbee (I think) in the small pile of coins. The Scottish connection is a pretty strong indication that you're correct in your identification.

Unfortunately the coin is at home and I'm at work, so I'll have to wait until tonight to see if I can identify exactly which one it is.

Thanks again for your help and all the info.

Andy Mc.