Double florins

[Geoff T]

After D-day on 15 February 1971 there was a period of grace during which all pre-decimal coins, excluding those already demonetised, could still be used. This lasted until the end of August after which a royal proclamation by letters patent came into effect and which also redefined the status of the existing "silver" coins". This stated, as quoted in ESC

"Cupro-nickel or silver coins issued by our Mint before the fifteenth day of February 1971...being coins of the denominations: 5s; 4s; 2s; 1s and 6d shall...be treated as coins of the new currency and as as being of the denominations...25p; 20p; 10p; 5p; and 2 1/2p."

The sixpence, shilling and florin were all eventually demonetised. The crown, which was largely commemorative anyway, metamorphosed into the commemorative 25p, although the above wording suggests that pre-decimal crowns are still legal tender at face value.

The interesting one is the reference to coins of 4/- . In 1971 we'd had no coins to that value since the short-lived double florins of 1887-90. The decimal 20p was only introduced in 1982. Taken as written then, the proclamation also suggests that these double florins were not only still legal tender in 1971 but remained so at least until 1982. If that were really the case, was the double florin formally demonetised then, or has it remained legal tender through the failure to close a loophole akin to the one which has had Berwick on Tweed at war with Russia since the mid-19th century?

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Geoff

[Sylvester]

After D-day on 15 February 1971 there was a period of grace during which all pre-decimal coins, excluding those already demonetised, could still be used. This lasted until the end of August after which a royal proclamation by letters patent came into effect and which also redefined the status of the existing "silver" coins". This stated, as quoted in ESC

"Cupro-nickel or silver coins issued by our Mint before the fifteenth day of February 1971...being coins of the denominations: 5s; 4s; 2s; 1s and 6d shall...be treated as coins of the new currency and as as being of the denominations...25p; 20p; 10p; 5p; and 2 1/2p."

The sixpence, shilling and florin were all eventually demonetised. The crown, which was largely commemorative anyway, metamorphosed into the commemorative 25p, although the above wording suggests that pre-decimal crowns are still legal tender at face value.

The interesting one is the reference to coins of 4/- . In 1971 we'd had no coins to that value since the short-lived double florins of 1887-90. The decimal 20p was only introduced in 1982. Taken as written then, the proclamation also suggests that these double florins were not only still legal tender in 1971 but remained so at least until 1982. If that were really the case, was the double florin formally demonetised then, or has it remained legal tender through the failure to close a loophole akin to the one which has had Berwick on Tweed at war with Russia since the mid-19th century?

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Geoff

Coincraft states that the silver threepences are also legal tender still, but since 1971 for three new pence.

I asked the Royal Mint and they denied the fact, and stated they were not legal tender.

Not sure about Double Florins.

Half sovereigns are legal for 50p though...

[mint_mark]

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Geoff

... not really, but there is a page on the Royal Mint web site that reinforces what you say.

They say it includes coins "generally found to be in circulation".

Here's the url

http://www.royalmint.com/talk/introduction_dem.asp

[Chris Perkins]

Well I never, so although double florins were not in general circulation in 1971, they are still in fact legal tender as they were never demonetised.

Unless they were demonetised long before, of course, perhaps even in Victorian times when the public didn't like them and they were confused as crowns?? But I have never heard they were immediatlely demonetised. And I know there were pattern versions made at later dates.

Right, tell you what, I'll give everybody double face value for their double florins!!

[Geoff T]

Geoff

Coincraft states that the silver threepences are also legal tender still, but since 1971 for three new pence.

[Geoff T]

I decided to consult the oracle on this one. There was I, there was Colin Cooke, so "right" I thought "carpe diem".

He agreed that, if double florins weren't demonetised in 1890, then they were technically legal tender in 1971, as the letters patent suggest, and should still be if not finally demonetised in 1982 (not that anyone would be rash enough to try and spend one).

He did issue a caveat that just because something was legal tender it didn't follow that banks would accept it. He gave the example of many banks refusing to accept decimal 25p crowns on that grounds that, since they have no denomination, too many people were assuming they were the same as £5 coins.

Geoff

[Chris Perkins]

You hang out with Colin Cooke do you Geoff?

I've had enormous trouble in the past trying to pass off Crowns, 47-67 florins and in fact all kinds of Predecimal currency at banks. I think I succeded some time ago with florins because I was able to convince them that they were legal as 10p until 1993, and that they would take large 10p's surely!

And I get people too that seem to want to upgate their 25p coins to £5 face value.

[Geoff T]

Colin is just a few miles down the road from me and we were at a meeting of the South Manchester Numismatic Society. The theme was "bring a coin with a story" and Colin brought about 10 rare 18th and 19th century farthings which he said were about to go on his website. I said it was a shame he didn't bring the 1952 half crown and he replied he once did - and nobody spotted anything untoward!

I'm going to his shop on Saturday so who knows - I might get a private viewing

[Chris Perkins]

Was he at the Bloomsbury Coin fair the other week? I really must meet all these well known names.

[Sylvester]

Colin is just a few miles down the road from me and we were at a meeting of the South Manchester Numismatic Society. The theme was "bring a coin with a story" and Colin brought about 10 rare 18th and 19th century farthings which he said were about to go on his website. I said it was a shame he didn't bring the 1952 half crown and he replied he once did - and nobody spotted anything untoward!

He likes his farthings, he's got loads of them on his site!

I really must get a high grade tin farthing one day when my funds stretch that far. Never liked copper, try to avoid the suff like the plague, but tin! I bet that's a fascinating area!!!

Must get a tin coin one day.

And to be honest i probably wouldn't have noticed the 1952 halfcrown either, i'm kinda tuned into pre George III stuff at the moment, and i don't really notice the later stuff much these days.

[Chris Perkins]

I had an AVF W&M tin farthing on the side recently, did you see it? It sold quite quickly for £150.

[Sylvester]

I had an AVF W&M tin farthing on the side recently, did you see it? It sold quite quickly for £150.

missed it Chris... but i'm afraid with tin you've got to be very quick!

[Geoff T]

Was he at the Bloomsbury Coin fair the other week? I really must meet all these well known names.

Colin claims he's never exhibited at a coin fair.

[Chris Perkins]

Is that so. Well it was my first in the UK, and that's probably why Richard Varnham (long established London/Kent dealer) who I was helping, had never heard of him!