1949threepence

Cor blimey, guv. Stone the bleedin' crows. Where'd you spot that beauty?

Indeed. Going back to this question, I'm wondering to what extent Court's estimates on several early 20th century scarcities, are accurate. For those who are unaware, V.R.Court ran a short series of incredibly useful (and to this day still referred to) articles under the heading, "Major varieties of UK pennies 1902 to 1967", notably in the August and September 1972 editions of Coin Monthly. Court's opinion on the mintages for these varieties (pre melt), are as follows:- 1902 low tide = 1,212,600 (sounds about right) 1903 open 3 = 37,300 (possibly slight underestimate?) 1905 F160 = 3,231,350 (sounds about right) 1908 F164 = 1,166,550 (sounds about right) 1908 F164A = 55,550 (yes, but see F176) 1908 F165 = 3,370,000 (sounds about right) 1909 F169 = 23,200 (sounds about right) 1913 F175 = 1,733,500 (given current availability, maybe an over estimate, or just not collected) 1913 F176 = 948,750 (as above) 1915 rec ear = 5,404,200 (maybe over estimate) 1916 rec ear = 16,129,850 (sounds about right) 1918H = 2,465,658 (probably about correct, but reported degree of scarcity in the immediate pre -withdrawal period may have been due to collector uptake) 1918KN = 1,195,142 (as above) 1919H = 4,787,556 (probably about correct) 1919KN = 422,044 (as above) Mostly correct I'd say, but with a major discrepancy (in my view) between open 3 & 164A on the one hand, with F175 & F176, on the other. If Court's figures on the 175 & 176 are correct, then it would suggest the vast majority met their fate in the melt, having not been specifically collected, except by default. Actually, that could well be the case given that there are a fair number of the extant population of 175's and 176's that are in high grade, whereas conversely that is manifestly not the case for the open 3 and the 164A. Post melt, probably all four types are of roughly comparable rarity.

I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. Paypal may be convenient but they're a lousy outfit who effectively abuse their decent customers with extremely poor customer service and now this. The conclusion has to be that you can't trust them to back you up in the event of a problem not of your making. If there were some way round never using them, I'd take it.

Well you say that, but with regard specifically to 1913, the Britannia strike seems to be variable. My 174 is fully struck up, whereas my 177 has a poor breastplate. Both have good hair detail.

I thought it was pronounced "feng shway".

You often see evidence of a die clash at the front of the Queen's neck. Common area for it.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

It was a nifty bit of work you did to get the relevant images isolated and the right way up, Richard.

Indeed. Somebody's fallen for it, He even got the grade wrong as it's NVF at best. Sadly, there really are some naive buyers out there. Mind, this guy's got form as you probably already know. With regard to your other link, I wish the damn things were the right way up, but the one in the corner has the tell tale tall helmet plume. If the obverse in the same place matches, which I think it does, somebody's nabbed themselves a F76. Nice one. Again, it was recognised, as nobody would surely pay that much for the remainder of the tat.

Yep, the number of times I've sent a follow up one word text to correct an auto "correct" that slipped in while I was busy typing the main text.

Very interesting Chris, and thanks for the info. Obviously, as you sort of indicate above, for the very rarest coins, it's almost impossible to obtain an example above fine anyway. In some cases, such as the F90 or F169, and with the exception of one, the F164A also, they simply don't exist in the known population. Truly BU pennies before 1883, are very few and far between, even for the "common" years. Mostly we have to settle for GEF with some residual lustre.

I don't think the F74 is a proof, nor was ever intended to be. Rather it is an intentional specimen, as opposed to an early strike from new polished dies. The following description accompanied the Copthorne example:- Anyway, here it is. It is an exceptionally good strike, especially to the obverse. But lacks any indication whatever of it being a proof.

Not to worry. Got a pretty good idea from the above anyway.

I can see that the fields are smooth and the strike very sharp. Are you able to take a picture now?

Looking through the list of dealers in last year's Coin Yearbook, I can only find two in Hertfordshire itself:- M.G.Coins & Antiquities, 12 Mansfield, High Wych CM12-OJJ - Tel 01279 721719 David Miller Coins and Antiquities, PO Box 711 Hemel Hempstead, HP2 4UH - Tel 01442 251492 Although plenty in adjacent and nearby counties, Essex, Berkshire, Bucks, Cambs, Oxfordshire, Surrey and Northants. Hope this helps. If you order a 2020 coin yearbook from Token Publishing, you'll be able to see them all. Available as an e version or hard copy.

Re: bit in bold - actually, depending on how in depth you go, that is pretty much spot on. Welcome to the forum, enjoy the experience, and please don't be shy of asking any questions.

Good points Jerry. Logically, you're spot on. Maybe the wide rim is a bit of an erroneous red herring.

Pics, Chris?

Here's my F67, out of interest. Ordinary rim and definitely not a specimen, but as you say there are other non specimens with a thick rim. High grade, but definitely a currency strike, and a clear difference to yours, which does have all the hallmarks of a specimen strike.

Apologies if this has already been posted, but e bay seller "The Coin King" has written an article about the increasing number of fakes being offered on e bay, including how they typically manifest, what to look for and where they might originate. Worth a read. link

In fairness, he did have the "or make offer" option available, as he nearly always does.

Not easy to get, so if anybody can point me in the right direction, I'd be very grateful. Thanks.

No, in fact the only specimens/possible proofs known of in the 1874 series, are the Heaton Mint ones (F74). I actually successfully bid for the Copthorne example, in 2016. Your F67 definitely does have the typical red/blue toning characteristics of a specimen, as well as that thick rim, especially to the obverse, which my F74 has as well.

Well I've now managed to obtain a really nice F176, again from John Jerrams (Topcarp2). Thanks for the heads up Jerry. Really pleased with this acquisition as the 176 is clearly very scare, even in low grade. So to get one like this is excellent. I'd say it's aUNC/GEF, with decent hair detail, although as so often with this era, the breast plate is somewhat deficient. Britannia's head well struck up, however. Tiny circular metal flaw on the King's head. Managed to knock him down from £320 to £280 best offer, which, given the condition, is a very reasonable price, with free postage and exclusive of any auction buyer fee. I must say, he does a good sell, and his write up's are always a pleasure to read.

Beauty - that's a hard date, especially in high grade.