Slaney 2

[VickySilver 873]

Though not my area at all, I have often wondered about these siege coins in general. I understand die linkage, etc., but given the increase in counterfeiting capability wonder that there may not be quite a number of later "concoctions". I know that there have certainly been counterfeits of ancients struck on original metal but from melted salvage coins (in other words the newer coins are correct when metallurgy studies done) and dies taken from copies of originals. I would wonder if even this threat may eventually temper bidding...

[TomGoodheart 403]

As I understand it, the Victorians had quite taste for the 'romance' of the Civil War period, re-creating through electrotype and other methods coins and medals which might be of interest to collectors of the time.

Whether it's possible to declare an entire issue to be later concoctions, I'm not sure. Very interesting points though!

.

[Rob 3,165]

I have a problem with there being one or two examples known of most denominations in penny increments from 6d upwards. If you are going to have a garrison that needs paying, you will make coins of nominally the same value for the same type of soldier - that's why the majority of provincial coins are shillings and halfcrowns, this being the nominal daily rate for a foot soldier and cavalryman respectively. These sums were not cast in stone as the infantry rates varied from about 8d up to 1s3d per day depending on who was paying and at which point in the war for example. It is not beyond reason to expect that approximately the same size pieces could be produced. i.e. you would expect to see large numbers of one denomination or possibly two to reflect that the garrison was effectively composed of foot soldiers.

Of possibly far more interest than the silver is the quantity of CARA copper farthings found at the bottom of the castle well.

There isn't a problem with the attested provincial mints, but those with a question mark after them definitely need a lot more investigative work, particularly Ashby(?) and Bridgnorth(?). Boon's theory and attribution to these places I believe will one day be proven to be wrong. B is dependent on A, yet according to the theory, in the month long siege of Bridgnorth you have approaching 30 dies to serve a garrison of 120. The bulk of the garrison (including those who came from Ashby) left Bridgnorth on 12th March 1645/6, a fortnight before the year end and were subsequently defeated at Stow on the Wold on the 21st, so you would expect the 'B' coins to be dated 1645 - but they aren't.

You have documentary evidence of coins struck at Aberystwyth mills in March 1645/6 which would fit nicely with the A coins as Aberystwyth fell on the 14th April, and given the die linkage to B, suggests that it must relate to one of only two areas where Royalist troops were concentrated in 1646 - N W Wales on a line drawn from Barmouth up to Denbigh, or at Raglan where there was a garrison of about 1000 and a very wealthy owner. Silver was in short supply at the end of the war.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Rob

[Coinery 1,177]

I was waiting for that!

[Rob 3,165]

I was waiting for that!

I must be repeating myself too often.

[Coinery 1,177]

I was waiting for that!

I must be repeating myself too often.

No, I just knew it would ring your bell!

I'll be ringing it too someday, when a new financial story unfolds before me!

I do love the siege coinage!

[kal 22]

Setting aside eighteenth century concoctions, and outright fakes for example the three "Singletons"referred to in the recent Spink Slaney

review.Asigning the Type 1 to an unrelated issue and placing the contemporary Type 111 "uncertain castle"series to a different location,

we are left with Type 11.

In the recent Spink Magnus auction in 2012 lot # 963 is described two shillings and tenpence Type 11"without doubt from authentic Scarborough punches" and continues "which are accepted as those used for coins during the siege".I estimate there at present is twenty two examples existing,published with illustrations from

various sources mostly museums and auction catalogues.They range from the five shilling and eight pence (Hunterian} to the fourpence B.M.They are all produced

from the same set of punches referred to above.

[Coinery 1,177]

Whoever you are Kal, welcome aboard, this is the stuff we all love reading about!

I can't believe you don't know Rob already, or pretty much the entire coin community, as your posts are hardly 'newbie' in quality!

Don't mind Dave (just in case he joins in), he just loves coins! Joke, alright?

[azda 979]

I was thinking exactly the same thing about our new friend. A great period of history and not many know such in depth knowledge. I often wonder where people get their Info from regarding the Slaney piece and it being a possible forgery, i assume this is what you mean by "not quite right"?

I'm assuming You're in the trade with your opening few sentences.

Edited June 24, 2015 by azda

[Rob 3,165]

We have already communicated. Needless to say there is a divergence of opinions, but hey, that's why these things are so fascinating and the subject of much discussion.

I suspect it will be a bit of downer if we ever resolve the issues.

[Coinery 1,177]

We have already communicated.

I suspect it will be a bit of downer if we ever resolve the issues.

What, there would be many years of research discredited by either one of your findings being accredited?

edit: maybe a little simplistic I grant you!

Edited June 24, 2015 by Coinery

[azda 979]

2 heads are better than 1. it will be good to see the outcome though.

[Paulus 1,975]

Entirely fascinating I agree, nothing I can add of any value, except to say that siege pieces seem to me to be an obvious target for a forger, be he/she contemporary, Victorian, modern or Asian!

Coinery sold me a very dodgy Newark a long while back (ok, he did say it wasn't genuine! )

Edited June 24, 2015 by Paulus

[Coinery 1,177]

Coinery sold me a very dodgy Newark a long while back (ok, he did say it wasn't genuine! )

Still charged you a grand, though, and you couldn't get it back by PayPal!

AND it was pewter...taught you the old Skool way by hurting your pocket!

Now write again...

I will not buy a fake coin ever again!

I will not buy a fake coin ever again!

:)

Viva la forum!

[TomGoodheart 403]

Yeah, welcome Kal. Interesting observations. Can ask if that's what you collect? And of course remind you that pictures of member's coins are always welcome!

[kal 22]

With reference to forgeries and the civil war siege issues,we are fortunate that the two most skilled counterfeiters Emery and Singleton both active in early Victorian times seem to have concentrated their efforts on different numismatic periods namely Anglo-Saxon, Norman and Tudor. Emery by far the more skillful also liked to fabricate rare Irish and Scottish coins again targeting the Tudor period.

John White a mid eighteenth century forger described by Michael Dolley as"author of a number of extremely ingenious forgeries of Anglo-Saxon and early medieval series".White also a dealer,supplied some of coins that ended up in the Hunter collection.The two "Scarborough type 1{Hunterian] both likely struck from the same plate{displaying similiar edge marking}, described in the Slaney review"shallowly engraved, weakly struck and blurred suggesting that the punch was difficult to impress".These two pieces I believe are possible candidates of Whites work?That they are based on the B.M. specimen and its die pair Slaney#359 indicates to me that the latter two are maybe genuine both originally made on larger flans before being severely cut down ,more so #359.

Thanks Tom, When active ,over twenty years ago, I assembled a small collection of English and Irish siege coins. I now collect numismatic books and early coin auction catalogues.

[TomGoodheart 403]

I now collect numismatic books and early coin auction catalogues.

Very pleased to meet you then! I have a few catalogues myself, although no really early ones since Tower shillings, being so common, were rarely illustrated unless 'fine work' and my collecting is limited to circulating coins.

My interest is primarily provenance, though there is a certain enjoyment in just being able to browse through a publication that's survived relatively unscathed for 20, 50 or 70 years!

.

[kal 22]

Hi Tom,

Like most collectors, after a few false starts collecting medieval groats, then hammered crowns, I finally ended up collecting civil war siege coins, both English and Irish, all the while adding coin books and auction catalogues, but to be honest, always reluctant to spend much on reference material. Buying early Sotheby catalogues and very fine Charles I silver 30 years ago was affordable. Today I am content obtaining the odd catalogue when they come available.