more FAKES

[Peter 615]

The benefit of CGS certifying these bad boys is you can get your money back.

Alibaba have put me off collecting what they reproduce.

[numismatist 2]

It seems these days the authorities are just not interested, like they seemed

to be in the 1970's when the fake gold £5 pieces flooded the market from

Beirut in the Lebanon and UK Coins Dealers were bringing them and other

fakes in ,in tubes of 25 . Several top Dealers at the time insisted they were

Genuine, and one I knew was about in tears when a dozen or so were seized

from him. Quite a few Dealers when down for selling them , but now even some

of the largest Auction houses sell them ( as fakes ) so is the law now changed ?

[numismatist 2]

The Drapery

1, The Ebay coin

2, The known Genuine Coin

3, The second Ebay Coin

[TomGoodheart 403]

Given that coinageofengland's coin has been mentioned I have invited him to visit.

Personally I now slightly regret selling the Northumberland I bought a few years back. Would have been interesting to still have it for comparison ...

.

[Rob 3,152]

There might be some mileage in checking the edges. Every shilling I possess from W3 up to the 1787 issues with the exception of my 1750 has evidence of apparent double cutting on a short section of the diagonal milling. As this is different on each coin, I'm assuming that it is due to the way the edge was put on. I don't know for certain, but think it was put on by rolling it using Castaing edging equipment or similar where the blanks were rolled along a strip containing the edge required. We know the lettered edges used on the larger denominations were done in this way because you see overlaid letters on the Anne pattern halfpennies (P708-11 and other edges not listed in Peck). e.g. My lettered edge halfpenny reads DECVS•ET•TVTA[M]NNO•REGNI•DVODECI+•+• with only the left hand limb of the M present. These are all unique to the coin in question, so it is not unreasonable to assume the diagonal milling would be any different if applied in this manner and this is what I see on at least a dozen coins over a 100 year period.

So the next step to pursue this would be for others to confirm what I have written above, and if anyone has an obviously dodgy Northumberland shilling, to check the milling. Hopefully you can see what I mean with the attached image. It is inconceivable that the copies were made after the edge was applied using the traditional method, so any known dodgy piece should have an edge that is consistent across the copies. It may have a slight mismatch in position relative to the two sides between batches, but the milling profile should remain constant between copies.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Rob

[numismatist 2]

Good idea of " Robs " because the fakers do seem to mess up on the edges

( Note- the Gothic Crown letters ) Shame virtually no one ever seems to photo

Coin edges when selling coins , suppose its quite difficult to do .

[Coinery 1,157]

A good observation, Rob, maybe guy could help us out with some edge images of his coin.

Something we also need to determine is whether there are any milled examples of the Northumberland around?

Is that image of the 1899 coin about as good as we're going to get, Rob? Could I have a copy?

Also, Paul's reverse has what looks like some clear joins, not on the outer edge as usual, but on the inside rim, so maybe it's sunk inside a cast edge, possibly? Did you take any high-res photos yourself, Paul?

I guess, if we start on the premise that only one genuine die existed, and maybe 'trust' CGS's judgement (for now, and assume they have slabbed only genuine coins), we should be able to determine, quite easily, from a number of coins, what are the correct letters and relative positionings? Most importantly, we will know the the progression of clogs and fractures across the series from doing this. This will be useful when dealing with any casts which aren't exposed by seams and/or weight. Did you weigh your copy, Paulus?

I'm hypothesising here, but I'm going to suggest it's nigh on impossible to make a perfect cast, and most will require a tiny bit of tidying up. This is where we might find a common mistake? A wider curl, maybe a misshapen one? Or a letter that should be blocked, which isn't?

Whilst I've not looked any further, yet, it does look (further to the blocked R) as though the 6-shaped (I wonder Paulus if this was the 6 they were talking about?) curl just to the left of the clasp has some tell-tale signs? What's going on at the top of the curl on Rob's image? Also it's far more evenly curving and of a consistent thickness on the Greuber coin?

I think the fakers will have cleared a block, or created an extra small feature when cleaning up the cast. Of course, if more than one cast is made, there'll be other things to look for.

So, I'm guessing we need to make a detailed analysis of all the quirks and differences of any, and all, Northumberlands shillings, and then disseminate the findings?

Anyone got a Northumberland, and/or any quality images I could chop up with some software for group evaluation?

Time to play CGS and the BNTA at their own game. When we've finally concluded, we could concisely present the facts and ask Chris if he could lock it on the forum so it doesn't get buried? Newcomers could always challenge the evidence of the locked post in the usual way.

[Nick 329]

Anyone got a Northumberland, and/or any quality images I could chop up with some software for group evaluation?

There are quite a few in the Heritage archive.

[TomGoodheart 403]

Coinageofengland's reply concerning his coin:

"Thank you for your email. I will respond in full regarding my 1763 Shilling and the copies I have seen.

My example was purchased at a top London auction, it is an extremely nice example fully struck with good fields, it is also struck as opposed to cast which the copies seem to be. My pictures of the coin does not reflect the high quality it is and therefore it looks rather one dimensional.

The copies I have personally seen are all generally vf-gvf, they are cast and look like copies to the trained eye. My example is far nicer in real life and is clearly not a copy. I guarantee all my coins as genuine and I stand by this coin fully."

.

[Coinery 1,157]

To be fair, no-one has out and out claimed his coin is a fake, anyway...it was just thrown into the melting pot.

Thanks, Nick!

[Rob 3,152]

The problem with the image taken from Greuber is that I have to try to hold the page flat whilst taking the image. As it is bound, over 100 years old and in immaculate condition, I don't want to wreck the binding.

I've got a Northumberland, but isn't the best, struggling towards aEF. It has a broken G, O and R, but is also slightly mistruck below the clasp and has a haymark, which when taken with the milling (middle one of the three edges above), inclines me to believe it is kosher. Mistriking could lead to defective letters. Pics attached.

[Rob 3,152]

One thing that stands out on the obvious fakes on the previous page is the shape of the 3 top laurel leaf tips. All appear to be slightly rounded whereas the ones that purport to be ok are quite pointed.

[TomGoodheart 403]

And a final word from coinageofengland

"Since your email this morning I took the coin to DNW for their opinion. They said there is no doubt it is genuine, which is re assuring and confirms my opinion. I ended up entering it for the June auction, I wanted to add this so people do not assume that as I have removed it from sale and am condemning it. It is in fact the opposite, due to DNW liking the coin so much I felt it would do better with better pictures and in auction."

And he was kind enough to send me the original photos in case they are of interest to anyone here:

.

Edited February 18, 2015 by TomGoodheart

[Rob 3,152]

Here's another I've borrowed with the owner's consent for the purposes of this exercise.

There is a fine, but sharp flaw leading out from near the base of the first G which crosses the first depression up in the drapery folds before ending at the vertical straps. That is on my coin too, but doesn't appear on the obvious fakes. Trying to sort out when that appears will help with the chronological indicators. There is also a flaw which forms across the tops of the right hand letters in reverse from AIT, then dips slightly to cross the A at the inner apex of the two legs, then out to the top of the R, continuing in an arc to join the teeth and on my coin ends at the tooth to the left of the stop. This is seen on most examples if I recall, but this last one is not on the attached image, suggesting an early strike..

Edited February 18, 2015 by Rob

[jelida 1,317]

The weight of evidence seems to be stacking up for at least two genuine die pairings, or at least substantial die repair/ re-engraving, demonstrated in the differing draperies. It will be interesting to see if any 'evolution' in terms of wear to the die can be demonstrated as other examples turn up.

Is there in fact any definitive evidence for 'struck' forgery Northumberland shillings yet?

Jerry

[Coinery 1,157]

Is there in fact any definitive evidence for 'struck' forgery Northumberland shillings yet?

Jerry

Not as far as I know?

And you're right, it's already looking a possibility that some die reworking, or secondary sets, are involved.

The vertical lines in the shoulder are preliminarily catching my eye, as the second from left one, does not reach to the bottom on some examples, and is faint and frail on others. What happened to the 'ridge' on the die we won't know, but it clearly looks to have been properly smoothed off at the mint at some point (if those coins do indeed turn out to be genuine)?

It we could chronologically tie that in with other historical 'developments' on the die, I think it might be an interesting 'tool', as I'm thinking, this could potentially be an area that's ignorantly 'cleaned up' on a cast?

I wonder what the lifespan of a cast is, how many coins might be expected from it?

[Rob 3,152]

Just ordered one each of the two varieties of Northumberland currently available on Alibaba. At $3.50 for the pair including postage it seems to be the easiest way to reverse engineer them.

[Coinery 1,157]

Just ordered one each of the two varieties of Northumberland currently available on Alibaba. At $3.50 for the pair including postage it seems to be the easiest way to reverse engineer them.

Perhaps I could pay you $1.75 plus postage to have a look at them after you?

I'm just saving up a few images from eBay past sales, and I'd feel confident in saying the better ones are cast complete with the full edge attached to the obverse, with the reverse inset into it.

[Coinery 1,157]

I'm guessing the chap who's repeatingly selling copies at £19.99 on eBay, has the same copies as you've just purchased, Rob?

So I'll not waste my time on that one!

[Rob 3,152]

Just ordered one each of the two varieties of Northumberland currently available on Alibaba. At $3.50 for the pair including postage it seems to be the easiest way to reverse engineer them.

Perhaps I could pay you $1.75 plus postage to have a look at them after you?

I'm just saving up a few images from eBay past sales, and I'd feel confident in saying the better ones are cast complete with the full edge attached to the obverse, with the reverse inset into it.

That's me spent up for the month. Can't afford anything until Slaney 2 now.

[Coinery 1,157]

maybe I could stretch to hiring them at $3.50, then!

[HistoricCoinage 147]

I feel sorry for the kid...

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Schoolboy-finds-Tudor-coin-snowball/story-26040533-detail/story.html

[Coinery 1,157]

I feel sorry for the kid...

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Schoolboy-finds-Tudor-coin-snowball/story-26040533-detail/story.html

Oh, dear! That old pewter threepence raises its ugly head, yet again!

[Peter 615]

I feel sorry for the kid...

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Schoolboy-finds-Tudor-coin-snowball/story-26040533-detail/story.html

Oh, dear! That old pewter threepence raises its ugly head, yet again!

I've reported it to the editor/administrator

[Rob 3,152]

Two lumps of sh*** landed on the doorstep today. I'm going to send them off to Stuart as he requested. If anyone else wants to have a look at them afterwards, they can do the rounds as long as the last person sends them back to go in the dodgy reference cabinet here.

Broad indicators are the die axis is a joke, the weights are way over and one of them is thick enough to be a piedfort. Add in the obvious casting and I find it difficult to believe that anyone could be taken in by them. I suspect there are more varieties of copies out there. Any way, for future reference.

Weight 7.82g. 1.9mm thick, 25.7mm diameter. Plain edge. Die axis rotated 20-25^o acw (335-340^o) from the correct position for en-coin.

Seller on Alibaba - coins store

Edited March 13, 2015 by Rob