CGS - A customer-facing business?

[Coinery 1,012]

Or you might be taken by this pretty 1729 Halfpenny copper proof with no stop (Peck 835):

The great thing was, I was allowed to handle these coins at my leisure, in the raw (ironically!)

Surely you at least wore a pair of cotton gloves?

Nope!!!!! But I must say I was a lot more careful to only handle by the edges than they were!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Ooops, now I've said it!!

I suppose the thrill of handling such gorgeous coins made you impervious to the cold, then

Indeed, the requirement to view their coins while stark bollock-naked was a surprise at first, but after the brief initiation ceremony I am now totally converted!

[azda 978]

Or you might be taken by this pretty 1729 Halfpenny copper proof with no stop (Peck 835):

The great thing was, I was allowed to handle these coins at my leisure, in the raw (ironically!)

I can see stops on this no stops variety lol

[Rob 3,106]

Or you might be taken by this pretty 1729 Halfpenny copper proof with no stop (Peck 835):

The great thing was, I was allowed to handle these coins at my leisure, in the raw (ironically!)

I can see stops on this no stops variety lol

No stop after GEORGIVS applies. See Nicholson 205 & 208

[argentumandcoins 70]

You'll have noticed that Spink don't list grades higher than EF for pre-1797 coins. And they have different grading guides for early milled and later milled. Got to be something in that.

Yes, but .. what? If a coin was struck in 1640 and handed straight to someone who put it in a box, it's clearly uncirculated. Same as if Bolton handed a halfpenny to someone in 1797 or a mint employee pocketed 20p tomorrow, the amount of wear those coins have been subject to is zero. So ... why aren't they the same grade?

As for using proofs for benchmarks, well that suggests to me that the grading is less about wear and more about how well a coin measures up against an idea. The idea of what a 'perfect' coin will look like.

Seems to me to be a bit of arbitrariness here ... which brings me back to .. why do we grade coins? If it's a measure of 'perfection', well, OK. Though there are problems with that, I can accept the concept. But if it's to do with wear, why are we using different grade ceilings just because a coin is older?

Yeah, I know. Not strictly about CGS is it? But I'm curious now what people think.

The main reason for grading from my point of view is so that I can price a coin to sell.

The only factors I consider when buying for the collection are;

a; Is it an attractrive addition to the collection(if not it has to be hens teeth rare)?

b; Am I happy with the price?

c; Will I regret it if I pass on the coin this time around?

The grade given to it by an auction house, another dealer or a TPG service is absolutely irrelevant when you look at my 3 main considerations pre-purchase.

Edited April 4, 2013 by argentumandcoins

[TomGoodheart 380]

The main reason for grading from my point of view is so that I can price a coin to sell.

The only factors I consider when buying for the collection are;

a; Is it an attractrive addition to the collection(if not it has to be hens teeth rare)?

b; Am I happy with the price?

c; Will I regret it if I pass on the coin this time around?

The grade given to it by an auction house, another dealer or a TPG service is absolutely irrelevant when you look at my 3 main considerations pre-purchase.

See. I think that makes perfect sense. While price guides, such as Spink, are referred to by sellers and buyers in their consideration as to whether the price of a coin is acceptable then grading (since that's how the guide books work) will continue to have a use.

But I suspect that, apart from Bill and maybe a couple of others, most of us do what John does and go by the attractiveness of a coin (and then its rarity in that condition and cost) rather than worry about if it's an 88 rather than an 86. Certainly when we're buying for our own collections.

As for the 1729 no stop, I really don't need to know what grade number it's been given to see that it's a spectacular coin! If it was an equivalent coin of the type I collect, then irrespective of what anyone else says, my only real concerns would be; do I have one already that's as nice and if not, will they accept body parts can I afford it?

I suppose what I'm saying is I find it interesting that, given I believe most of us operate on the above collecting basis, so much effort is being expended commercially to determine something that's perhaps not of key concern to us when we buy coins. Particularly in terms of the sometimes relatively small qualititive differences (75-78 or whatever) mentioned elsewhere.

[Rob 3,106]

See. I think that makes perfect sense. While price guides, such as Spink, are referred to by sellers and buyers in their consideration as to whether the price of a coin is acceptable then grading (since that's how the guide books work) will continue to have a use.

But I suspect that, apart from Bill and maybe a couple of others, most of us do what John does and go by the attractiveness of a coin (and then its rarity in that condition and cost) rather than worry about if it's an 88 rather than an 86. Certainly when we're buying for our own collections.

As for the 1729 no stop, I really don't need to know what grade number it's been given to see that it's a spectacular coin! If it was an equivalent coin of the type I collect, then irrespective of what anyone else says, my only real concerns would be; do I have one already that's as nice and if not, will they accept body parts can I afford it?

I suppose what I'm saying is I find it interesting that, given I believe most of us operate on the above collecting basis, so much effort is being expended commercially to determine something that's perhaps not of key concern to us when we buy coins. Particularly in terms of the sometimes relatively small qualititive differences (75-78 or whatever) mentioned elsewhere.

A few years ago, a group were talking about the arguments for slabbing. One was that dealers could list coins as UNC or EF, etc but there was no defining difference to permit a significant premium to the price for the grade and so dealers would continue to make a butty, but not a lot of money. Slabbing offered the chance to gear up returns by appealing to those who wanted the 'finest known' for example. This is clearly what has happened in the States where a 67 and upwards will command a seriously inflated price. The same rationale was applied when setting up CGS. As a business model it has credibility, because that involves extracting better returns by adding value than would otherwise be obtained. However, the spanner in the works is that by and large, people collect because they like coins, and not so that they can have bragging rights etc. The premium prices are therefore only likely to be paid by people who think they can get a return on their investment, or who have few funding pressures because the main benefit of attributed grades on slabs is really limited to sorting out the pecking order within the best examples, but it is still only an opinion.

The concept of slabbing fits in well with the American psyche. Slabs have absolute numbers with none of this wishy-washy variable grading depending on who you talk to. Unfortunately, it is still an opinion of the grader at the TPG. Whilst it has led to an increase in collectors in the States who believe they are buying a product of fixed quality on account of the number assigned, it has done nothing to expand the numismatic knowledge of the collecting community. So whether the TPG is CGS or an American company, the rationale for slabbing is to produce a visibly premium label that will sell for more bucks than a raw coin - and to a certain extent they have succeeded.

[TomGoodheart 380]

So whether the TPG is CGS or an American company, the rationale for slabbing is to produce a visibly premium label that will sell for more bucks than a raw coin - and to a certain extent they have succeeded.

Interestingly I just found this on the Coin Community Forum ... it's from a thread about 'crossoever' slabbing (ie getting a coin reslabbed by a different TPGS, a service they are now apparently happy to provide!)

"I'm just curios .... Why would you want to have a coin re graded by PCGS? Is NGC inferior?"

"No, it's just that in this case there are far fewer in MS65 at PCGS and thus it typically sells for a lot more. NGC lists this coin at $4660 in MS65 and PCGS at $7000 in MS65 (only 1 graded MS65 so far and only 1 graded MS66). I figured it was worth a try."

it has done nothing to expand the numismatic knowledge of the collecting community.

Yup.

[Rob 3,106]

So whether the TPG is CGS or an American company, the rationale for slabbing is to produce a visibly premium label that will sell for more bucks than a raw coin - and to a certain extent they have succeeded.

Interestingly I just found this on the Coin Community Forum ... it's from a thread about 'crossoever' slabbing (ie getting a coin reslabbed by a different TPGS, a service they are now apparently happy to provide!)

"I'm just curios .... Why would you want to have a coin re graded by PCGS? Is NGC inferior?"

"No, it's just that in this case there are far fewer in MS65 at PCGS and thus it typically sells for a lot more. NGC lists this coin at $4660 in MS65 and PCGS at $7000 in MS65 (only 1 graded MS65 so far and only 1 graded MS66). I figured it was worth a try."

it has done nothing to expand the numismatic knowledge of the collecting community.

Yup.

Says it all. If anyone is interested, I have around 100 slab labels including many of the preferable PCGS variety, all 63s-66s and therefore very desirable. Offers please over £10K. The largely irrelevant coins have been removed and discarded into a mahogany box.

[TomGoodheart 380]

Says it all. If anyone is interested, I have around 100 slab labels including many of the preferable PCGS variety, all 63s-66s and therefore very desirable. Offers please over £10K. The largely irrelevant coins have been removed and discarded into a mahogany box.

I wonder if NGC would regrade your labels? I suspect they don't have many, so they must be worth more, surely?

Edit: Doh! Of course I was forgetting these will be British coins, won't they Rob? So it'll need to be CGS ..

.. OK, I'm going to stop now. I promise!

Edited April 4, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[Peter 615]

This has been a really interesting thread and opened my mind to TPG.

I won't rule out using TPG's (we did have thoughts on a forum syndicate in slabbing a few raw coins and putting them in a Heritage auction.This would of been PCGS though due to the US market.

I would happily use CGS should I collect the likes of Northumberland,Gothic Crowns,1864 die 4 florins ETC but I don't.

Thanks for every one's input.

[TomGoodheart 380]

This has been a really interesting thread and opened my mind to TPG.

I won't rule out using TPG's (we did have thoughts on a forum syndicate in slabbing a few raw coins and putting them in a Heritage auction.This would of been PCGS though due to the US market.

I would happily use CGS should I collect the likes of Northumberland,Gothic Crowns,1864 die 4 florins ETC but I don't.

Thanks for every one's input.

Quite. Despite my constantly playing Devil's advocate, I agree it's been interesting. I think GCS fills a market gap. Should I ever want to have coins graded and encapsulated, or just authenticated, there's no doubt that I'd feel much more confident with them than any of the US TPGS.

And despite my early cynicism (largely based on anecdotes concerning slabbing in the US) I can see some benefits from such a service. Plus, essentially because of comments here, I feel reassured that the UK coin market really is different from the (main) US model. And so there is little liklihood of us being forced into slabbing all our coins to have a chance of them being acceptable to 'the market'. For those that want such a service, a reliable 'home grown' version is now available. And for those that don't .. well, there's still that choice too. I'm comfortable with that.

[Coinery 1,012]

I'd say Bill is owed a couple of shares in CGS (or a few free slabs) for the outcome of this thread alone. What did you say your previous incarnation was again, Bill?

I personally think the service needs to stick to its claimed timescales...they have to remember that coin collecting is the grown-ups equivalent to Christmas, so a delay of 'weeks' is not conducive to further submissions. I swallowed the financial burden of having items returned unslabbed, and would submit differently on account of that, but delays beyond their already lengthy timescales...well, that really puts me off!

The sustained dignity and efforts of Bill under fire has been inspiring to say the least and, whilst it's a little twee, we all have one thing in common...passion for COINS!

Been a good read!

[Bill Pugsley 0]

I'd say Bill is owed a couple of shares in CGS (or a few free slabs) for the outcome of this thread alone. What did you say your previous incarnation was again, Bill?

I personally think the service needs to stick to its claimed timescales...they have to remember that coin collecting is the grown-ups equivalent to Christmas, so a delay of 'weeks' is not conducive to further submissions. I swallowed the financial burden of having items returned unslabbed, and would submit differently on account of that, but delays beyond their already lengthy timescales...well, that really puts me off!

The sustained dignity and efforts of Bill under fire has been inspiring to say the least and, whilst it's a little twee, we all have one thing in common...passion for COINS!

Been a good read!

As to previous incarnation: I sold my IT business and retired seven years ago (after 32 years). Five years ago I was appointed Chairman of a former IT business competitor and now I run their Irish Office from the UK. That aside I used to collect stamps with marginally less passion than I collect coins today.

I suppose I get dedicated (passionate) about things I believe in. I have 'met' some great and interesting people through this forum and I have been reminded once again that we are all individuals. I look forward to meeting some of you in person in the coming years while we continue to enjoy our hobby.

In the mean time I will start perusing other posts on this excellent forum to see if I can contribute (and certainly learn) more about our wonderful hobby.

Bill

[Sword 1,380]

CGS members would have received an e-mail "Save Money with CGS Service". The title is very strange as it is actually about price increases from May!! (You can therefore avoid the price increase if you submit your coins in April ... )

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

etc.

A price increase to £23.75 from £19.99 for milled coins worth less than 2K is not unreasonable as it has been £19.99 for quite a few years. However, increasing the turn round time from 30 days to 30-90 days is really unhelpful. A potential wait of 3 months is enough to wear out the patience of anyone (esp. those who are planning to sell afterwards).

It is a bit of a vicious circle. Excesssive turn round time --> less business --> more price increses + even longer turn round time

I think they would do well by promising to return all coins within 30 days with this round of price increase.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

CGS members would have received an e-mail "Save Money with CGS Service". The title is very strange as it is actually about price increases from May!! (You can therefore avoid the price increase if you submit your coins in April ... )

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

etc.

A price increase to £23.75 from £19.99 for milled coins worth less than 2K is not unreasonable as it has been £19.99 for quite a few years. However, increasing the turn round time from 30 days to 30-90 days is really unhelpful. A potential wait of 3 months is enough to wear out the patience of anyone (esp. those who are planning to sell afterwards).

It is a bit of a vicious circle. Excesssive turn round time --> less business --> more price increses + even longer turn round time

I think they would do well by promising to return all coins within 30 days with this round of price increase.

I too received the note about changes in prices and had not picked up on the change in lead time for the second level. The prices are very competitive (generally much lower) than the same level of service from US Grading Houses but you are right on the turnaround times. I will raise this directly with CGS although I suspect I may not win the argument because of the need for consistent volume submissions from collectors for them to schedule and devote the necessary time needed.

What I would appreciate from people who do submit coins are any statistics they may have by CGS Invoice Number (that will not identify your Id to me). For example:

When actually sent;

When recorded by CGS (I have had delays here);

Level paid, i.e. Standard, Normal, Deluxe;

When completed;

When actually received back (and here be honest if you asked for a delay).

This information would be useful in determining whether CGS are meeting even the outline commitments that they offer.

[TomGoodheart 380]

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

Hammered now, eh? Interesting. Although since I can buy six EF Charles I shillings, a meal for two and some chateau bottled Burgundy for less than £30 is a fair chunk of coin budget for me ... I'm not going to be hammering at their door for them to grade my coins just yet

No, I'm sure it's reasonable compared to US TPGS. And I guess hammered are trickier to grade ..? But I'd like to see some results on that!

[azda 978]

So basically what they're saying is that "we'll charge you more and take Even more time"? I thought personally £30 for 30 days was quite a while as it is, but now they want more cash and now will take more time?

Well Sorry but unfortunately i'll be bailing out at this point because i can't Sit. And wait on an unspecified time. I still have 2 Coins there that i paid £30 each fo, 1 has been there since 20th March and the other since 26th March, i hope they won't be caught up in this BS because i paid for a 30 day turnaround and not a 3 month one.

They'll be the last 2 i'll be sending i'm afraid, i could send

Them to Paris and get them back quicker than CGS who are based in the UK

[argentumandcoins 70]

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

Hammered now, eh? Interesting. Although since I can buy six EF Charles I shillings, a meal for two and some chateau bottled Burgundy for less than £30 is a fair chunk of coin budget for me ... I'm not going to be hammering at their door for them to grade my coins just yet

No, I'm sure it's reasonable compared to US TPGS. And I guess hammered are trickier to grade ..? But I'd like to see some results on that!

I would have thought that the foremost experts in the country would struggle to accurately grade hammered coins.

We have had multiple threads on here about this very subject and the general concensus was "buy on eye appeal or rarity, NOT GRADE"

Just how 2 blokes, a row full of previously graded coins and a computer program will accurately grade a hammered coin remains to be seen!

I really struggle in this area and even when you consider weak strikes, worn dies, planchet quality, environmental factors etc etc it is virtually impossible to arrive at a grade that is acceptable to 2 different collectors....

[Coinery 1,012]

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

Hammered now, eh? Interesting. Although since I can buy six EF Charles I shillings, a meal for two and some chateau bottled Burgundy for less than £30 is a fair chunk of coin budget for me ... I'm not going to be hammering at their door for them to grade my coins just yet

No, I'm sure it's reasonable compared to US TPGS. And I guess hammered are trickier to grade ..? But I'd like to see some results on that!

I would have thought that the foremost experts in the country would struggle to accurately grade hammered coins.

We have had multiple threads on here about this very subject and the general concensus was "buy on eye appeal or rarity, NOT GRADE"

Just how 2 blokes, a row full of previously graded coins and a computer program will accurately grade a hammered coin remains to be seen!

I really struggle in this area and even when you consider weak strikes, worn dies, planchet quality, environmental factors etc etc it is virtually impossible to arrive at a grade that is acceptable to 2 different collectors....

Yes, I do believe that no amount of discussion will ever satisfy a hammered collector that a hammered coin could ever be encapsulated 78, realistically!

I for one will not enter into the debate, at least I don't think I will!

[Gary D 76]

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

Hammered now, eh? Interesting. Although since I can buy six EF Charles I shillings, a meal for two and some chateau bottled Burgundy for less than £30 is a fair chunk of coin budget for me ... I'm not going to be hammering at their door for them to grade my coins just yet

No, I'm sure it's reasonable compared to US TPGS. And I guess hammered are trickier to grade ..? But I'd like to see some results on that!

I would have thought that the foremost experts in the country would struggle to accurately grade hammered coins.

We have had multiple threads on here about this very subject and the general concensus was "buy on eye appeal or rarity, NOT GRADE"

Just how 2 blokes, a row full of previously graded coins and a computer program will accurately grade a hammered coin remains to be seen!

I really struggle in this area and even when you consider weak strikes, worn dies, planchet quality, environmental factors etc etc it is virtually impossible to arrive at a grade that is acceptable to 2 different collectors....

Yes, I do believe that no amount of discussion will ever satisfy a hammered collector that a hammered coin could ever be encapsulated 78, realistically!

I for one will not enter into the debate, at least I don't think I will!

I don't see the problem, just think of a number and put it on the label. The sheep will follow.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

Hammered now, eh? Interesting. Although since I can buy six EF Charles I shillings, a meal for two and some chateau bottled Burgundy for less than £30 is a fair chunk of coin budget for me ... I'm not going to be hammering at their door for them to grade my coins just yet

No, I'm sure it's reasonable compared to US TPGS. And I guess hammered are trickier to grade ..? But I'd like to see some results on that!

I would have thought that the foremost experts in the country would struggle to accurately grade hammered coins.

We have had multiple threads on here about this very subject and the general concensus was "buy on eye appeal or rarity, NOT GRADE"

Just how 2 blokes, a row full of previously graded coins and a computer program will accurately grade a hammered coin remains to be seen!

I really struggle in this area and even when you consider weak strikes, worn dies, planchet quality, environmental factors etc etc it is virtually impossible to arrive at a grade that is acceptable to 2 different collectors....

Yes, I do believe that no amount of discussion will ever satisfy a hammered collector that a hammered coin could ever be encapsulated 78, realistically!

I for one will not enter into the debate, at least I don't think I will!

I don't see the problem, just think of a number and put it on the label. The sheep will follow.

I thought it worth adding the following current comments from the frequently asked questions on the CGS website:

Do you grade non English \ British Coins?

Our grading standards and bench mark coin set was designed around English milled coins and this is our primary expertise. We will grade and encapsulate Scottish Milled Coins, and other British Commonwealth coins. Our grading system is on a 1-100 scale not the 1 – 70 Sheldon Scale used for USA coins and popular for Canadian coins also, so we recommend one of the US based grading companies for the all North American.

How do I know my coins are suitable for grading?

By definition all coins can be graded so this question becomes a financial one, namely why should I pay to have my coins graded. The service provides authentication, attribution, long term protection by encapsulation, and a numeric grade allowing it to be compared to other coins and to serve as an aid to valuation.

CGS have never said they would be perfect at grading hammered coins (and as a collector I would have no idea of where to start). The CGS bench mark set is from around 1665. However, I have seen the results of their grading of Hammered coins and I believe their assessment is not unreasonable (but I do not collect hammered so I may be wrong).

If I did collect hammered coins I would certainly only submit them to CGS for grading if I decided to get them encapsulated as the graders have considerable experience (well over 60 years in total) of British Coins. The US graders may have graded more coins BUT do they have the experience of hammered coins? I suspect not.

[TomGoodheart 380]

Yes, I do believe that no amount of discussion will ever satisfy a hammered collector that a hammered coin could ever be encapsulated 78, realistically!

Quite. Mine are all 80s at least.

But on a more serious note, I don't believe that you can't grade a hammered coin (though some will undoubtedly present a challenge), it's just that in very few instances is the quality of striking uniform across the whole coin. Hence weakness or wear that is 'acceptable' if it is on the reverse, or to the legends, might be felt to severely detract from the desirability of a coin were it to the portrait.

Then you have the issue that the shape or size of the planchet can mean that parts of the legend are simply not there. While this has nothing to do with wear (and hence grade, per se) I think all of us that collect hammered will agree that a fully round, centrally struck coin will be preferred 9 times out of 10. As for a well struck coin with an indiscernible mint mark ....

Should such details be factored into the grading of such a coin? In fact, is is possible to entirely remove 'eye appeal' from the equation, when part of the assessment of coins is done by humans? It will be interesting to me to see how CGS resolves these questions. Particularly as I'm not sure there's always a clear concensus amongst collectors of hammered coins ourselves!

Edited April 7, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[Coinery 1,012]

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

Hammered now, eh? Interesting. Although since I can buy six EF Charles I shillings, a meal for two and some chateau bottled Burgundy for less than £30 is a fair chunk of coin budget for me ... I'm not going to be hammering at their door for them to grade my coins just yet

No, I'm sure it's reasonable compared to US TPGS. And I guess hammered are trickier to grade ..? But I'd like to see some results on that!

I would have thought that the foremost experts in the country would struggle to accurately grade hammered coins.

We have had multiple threads on here about this very subject and the general concensus was "buy on eye appeal or rarity, NOT GRADE"

Just how 2 blokes, a row full of previously graded coins and a computer program will accurately grade a hammered coin remains to be seen!

I really struggle in this area and even when you consider weak strikes, worn dies, planchet quality, environmental factors etc etc it is virtually impossible to arrive at a grade that is acceptable to 2 different collectors....

Yes, I do believe that no amount of discussion will ever satisfy a hammered collector that a hammered coin could ever be encapsulated 78, realistically!

I for one will not enter into the debate, at least I don't think I will!

I don't see the problem, just think of a number and put it on the label. The sheep will follow.

[Coinery 1,012]

Milled Coins worth less than £200: £13.75 (30-90 days)

Milled Coins worth less than £2000: £23.75 (30-90 days)

Hammered coins less than £2K: £29.99

Hammered now, eh? Interesting. Although since I can buy six EF Charles I shillings, a meal for two and some chateau bottled Burgundy for less than £30 is a fair chunk of coin budget for me ... I'm not going to be hammering at their door for them to grade my coins just yet

No, I'm sure it's reasonable compared to US TPGS. And I guess hammered are trickier to grade ..? But I'd like to see some results on that!

I would have thought that the foremost experts in the country would struggle to accurately grade hammered coins.

We have had multiple threads on here about this very subject and the general concensus was "buy on eye appeal or rarity, NOT GRADE"

Just how 2 blokes, a row full of previously graded coins and a computer program will accurately grade a hammered coin remains to be seen!

I really struggle in this area and even when you consider weak strikes, worn dies, planchet quality, environmental factors etc etc it is virtually impossible to arrive at a grade that is acceptable to 2 different collectors....

Yes, I do believe that no amount of discussion will ever satisfy a hammered collector that a hammered coin could ever be encapsulated 78, realistically!

I for one will not enter into the debate, at least I don't think I will!

I don't see the problem, just think of a number and put it on the label. The sheep will follow.

[Nick 326]

The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown.

I know of another three for certain, so the population will eventually turn out to be in double figures (if not three figures).

I've got two, one of which I've had for several years without realizing they were that scarce.

Hi Nick - two of what? The Halfcrown, Crown or the mule penny? Or two proof sets?

There are (now I believe) three different proof sets - the standard set issued for general population (40,000 made); the VIP Set (as names implies) for special gifts and I suspect less than 100 made but could be as low as 20 and the (as far as I have been able to find) pre-production proof set that was given to advisers to the Bank of England. For the latter it is estimated that there are no more than six produced (but finding out details is quite difficult).

Hi Bill, I highlighted in bold the relevant part of the reply, but in case it isn't that clear on some displays - I know of three (in addition to those known to CGS) of the 1+A proof halfcrowns. Gary D has two of them and I have another one.

I find it hard to believe that there are so few of them. I found one within a few weeks of starting to look.

Baldwins have a 1953 proof set containing a 1+A proof halfcrown in their forthcoming May auction. Estimate £1500-£2000.