Civil War Coinage....extraordinary.

[Danelaw 208]

I 'get' the rarity value of coins, but I fail to see the pull of this one.

Estimated at auction at £30,000-£35,000, it sold for £58,000. Would you, if you could, be happy to look at this and pay that amount?

[Rob 3,106]

I 'get' the rarity value of coins, but I fail to see the pull of this one.

Estimated at auction at £30,000-£35,000, it sold for £58,000. Would you, if you could, be happy to look at this and pay that amount?

Not 58, but 30-40 is about right in today's market.

[TomGoodheart 380]

I guess if you were crazy enough to want a full run of denominations of Scarborough coins and were missing a two shilling and tenpence piece ...

Siege coins have always sold at a premium relative to their scarcity and the market is ... let's say buoyant, at the moment. It only takes two deep pocketed bidders to send prices soaring. Whether on another day or in a couple of years time this coin will make that sort of price, who knows. But I know I've been prepared to pay as much as I can afford (which wasn't much!) for a coin on the basis that I would be hard pressed to see another. And I don't know about this coin but the odd value coins are presumably uncommon and rarely available.

In the end, if they buyer is happy and would have been prepared to pay more you could even say it was cheap!

When did it sell by the way?

[Coinery 1,011]

I 'get' the rarity value of coins, but I fail to see the pull of this one.

Estimated at auction at £30,000-£35,000, it sold for £58,000. Would you, if you could, be happy to look at this and pay that amount?

Would the extra price be anything to do with provenance, it's the coin featured in the Spink catalogue!

I love it, and I guess if you wanted one, this would have to be the one!

The Scarborough coinage must surely be an easy and worthwhile coin for the Chinese to get their hands on.

Just wished I had 58k handy at the time for a safe bet such as this one!

[azda 978]

Siege coins have always sold at a premium relative to their scarcity and the market is ... let's say buoyant, at the moment.

Funny, cos i have mine on the bay at a fair price and only 3 offers, and way less than i'm prepared to let it go for, so where are those buyers?I did turn down 1000 GBP on account of the fees incured and the guy did'nt want to pay by bank transfer so another 60 quid would have went down the swanny, so i had to decline

Edited June 9, 2012 by azda

[argentumandcoins 70]

Siege coins have always sold at a premium relative to their scarcity and the market is ... let's say buoyant, at the moment.

Funny, cos i have mine on the bay at a fair price and only 3 offers, and way less than i'm prepared to let it go for, so where are those buyers?I did turn down 1000 GBP on account of the fees incured and the guy did'nt want to pay by bank transfer so another 60 quid would have went down the swanny, so i had to decline

If buyers are paying a premium they tend to want a premium coin Dave. Unfortunately the Newark pieces, although scarce, are the commonest of all of the siege coinages.

[azda 978]

I'll remember that if another passes my way, although i've only had it a few weeks and 3 offers, so i'll Stick with the competitive price for it.

[Danelaw 208]

I guess if you were crazy enough to want a full run of denominations of Scarborough coins and were missing a two shilling and tenpence piece ...

Siege coins have always sold at a premium relative to their scarcity and the market is ... let's say buoyant, at the moment. It only takes two deep pocketed bidders to send prices soaring. Whether on another day or in a couple of years time this coin will make that sort of price, who knows. But I know I've been prepared to pay as much as I can afford (which wasn't much!) for a coin on the basis that I would be hard pressed to see another. And I don't know about this coin but the odd value coins are presumably uncommon and rarely available.

In the end, if they buyer is happy and would have been prepared to pay more you could even say it was cheap!

When did it sell by the way?

March 2012.

[Boomstick 0]

Are there reliable figures for the number of siege coins in existence? If so, can anybody point me to the reference?

[argentumandcoins 70]

Are there reliable figures for the number of siege coins in existence? If so, can anybody point me to the reference?

Not to my knowledge. You just have to go on your own research/experience.

The vast majority that turn up are Newark, with probably half of the ones you see having been holed for suspension. Scarborough is the rarest hence the seemingly high price. Carlisle is second hardest to acquire and if anybody has a spare I have a customer waiting

[Paulus 1,954]

I 'get' the rarity value of coins, but I fail to see the pull of this one.

Estimated at auction at £30,000-£35,000, it sold for £58,000. Would you, if you could, be happy to look at this and pay that amount?

Would the extra price be anything to do with provenance, it's the coin featured in the Spink catalogue!

I love it, and I guess if you wanted one, this would have to be the one!

The Scarborough coinage must surely be an easy and worthwhile coin for the Chinese to get their hands on.

Just wished I had 58k handy at the time for a safe bet such as this one!

Must be much kudos having one of your own coins pictured in Spink, can any of our honourable members claim that?

[Rob 3,106]

Are there reliable figures for the number of siege coins in existence? If so, can anybody point me to the reference?

Not to my knowledge. You just have to go on your own research/experience.

The vast majority that turn up are Newark, with probably half of the ones you see having been holed for suspension. Scarborough is the rarest hence the seemingly high price. Carlisle is second hardest to acquire and if anybody has a spare I have a customer waiting

Should have bought the one in the last CNG sale. $23K hammer wasn't over the top for a Carlisle and that one was quite a decent example.

As for Scarboroughs, most are in museums or places such as the ANA collection thanks to Norweb, so the rarity factor is magnified. I think on the whole though, 1 or 2 pieces is the norm for each denomination known.

[Rob 3,106]

Must be much kudos having one of your own coins pictured in Spink, can any of our honourable members claim that?

That would apply to anybody who has bought a single coin lot at a Spink auction, most being illustrated these days. So in answer to your question, probably half the regular posters.

[Paulus 1,954]

Must be much kudos having one of your own coins pictured in Spink, can any of our honourable members claim that?

That would apply to anybody who has bought a single coin lot at a Spink auction, most being illustrated these days. So in answer to your question, probably half the regular posters.

I should have qualified it I guess! How about in the annual Coins of England Spink catalogue, like the Scarborough under discussion here?

[Rob 3,106]

Only one for me in that case, the Alfred penny.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Are there reliable figures for the number of siege coins in existence? If so, can anybody point me to the reference?

Not to my knowledge. You just have to go on your own research/experience.

The vast majority that turn up are Newark, with probably half of the ones you see having been holed for suspension. Scarborough is the rarest hence the seemingly high price. Carlisle is second hardest to acquire and if anybody has a spare I have a customer waiting

Should have bought the one in the last CNG sale. $23K hammer wasn't over the top for a Carlisle and that one was quite a decent example.

As for Scarboroughs, most are in museums or places such as the ANA collection thanks to Norweb, so the rarity factor is magnified. I think on the whole though, 1 or 2 pieces is the norm for each denomination known.

I saw it but his pockets are not that deep! I think he could go £8k-ish if anybody would like me to broker a deal.

[Rob 3,106]

Carlisle is second hardest to acquire and if anybody has a spare I have a customer waiting

Should have bought the one in the last CNG sale. $23K hammer wasn't over the top for a Carlisle and that one was quite a decent example.

As for Scarboroughs, most are in museums or places such as the ANA collection thanks to Norweb, so the rarity factor is magnified. I think on the whole though, 1 or 2 pieces is the norm for each denomination known.

I saw it but his pockets are not that deep! I think he could go £8k-ish if anybody would like me to broker a deal.

Looks like it will stay a gap in the collection then. I can't see one going for under £10-12K hammer. The problem is they tend to come in roughly the same condition because there was only a limited time they circulated, so I'm not sure badly worn examples exist. The only alternative would be a damaged example which would obviously be cheaper.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Rob

[Rob 3,106]

I 'get' the rarity value of coins, but I fail to see the pull of this one.

Estimated at auction at £30,000-£35,000, it sold for £58,000. Would you, if you could, be happy to look at this and pay that amount?

Would the extra price be anything to do with provenance, it's the coin featured in the Spink catalogue!

I love it, and I guess if you wanted one, this would have to be the one!

The Scarborough coinage must surely be an easy and worthwhile coin for the Chinese to get their hands on.

Just wished I had 58k handy at the time for a safe bet such as this one!

Not at all. How do you sell as genuine and to whom (your average ebay buyer aside), something that is known to only exist with one or two examples, the whereabouts of which are well documented. Things like that are virtually immune from Chinese interference. You also have the well documented provenance with illustrations going back 100 years. Again from the 1903 Murdoch sale catalogue, this coin.

[declanwmagee 122]

Must be much kudos having one of your own coins pictured in Spink, can any of our honourable members claim that?

No, but a coin I sold to the esteemed Mr Groom ended up in his silver book!

[Paulus 1,954]

Must be much kudos having one of your own coins pictured in Spink, can any of our honourable members claim that?

No, but a coin I sold to the esteemed Mr Groom ended up in his silver book!

Yey, ok that counts. Maybe I will see if I can get my refunded Northumberland into a forgery publication!

[Coinery 1,011]

I 'get' the rarity value of coins, but I fail to see the pull of this one.

Estimated at auction at £30,000-£35,000, it sold for £58,000. Would you, if you could, be happy to look at this and pay that amount?

Would the extra price be anything to do with provenance, it's the coin featured in the Spink catalogue!

I love it, and I guess if you wanted one, this would have to be the one!

The Scarborough coinage must surely be an easy and worthwhile coin for the Chinese to get their hands on.

Just wished I had 58k handy at the time for a safe bet such as this one!

Not at all. How do you sell as genuine and to whom (your average ebay buyer aside), something that is known to only exist with one or two examples, the whereabouts of which are well documented. Things like that are virtually immune from Chinese interference. You also have the well documented provenance with illustrations going back 100 years. Again from the 1903 Murdoch sale catalogue, this coin.

A sober point, and answers another gap in my understanding!

However, it does raise another question? If this was the emergency coinage set up to pay the soldiers, a fair amount of it must of been hammered out, so what happened that we only have a couple of pieces left in existence, seems statisically confusing.

Equally, on account of such rarity, 58K seems a very small price to pay for such a unique and historically famous piece!

[TomGoodheart 380]

However, it does raise another question? If this was the emergency coinage set up to pay the soldiers, a fair amount of it must of been hammered out, so what happened that we only have a couple of pieces left in existence, seems statisically confusing.

Equally, on account of such rarity, 58K seems a very small price to pay for such a unique and historically famous piece!

I've discussed this with contacts at various times. The consensus is that where there is only one known die (and we're talking about Charles I shillings here) you'll generally find there to be around half a dozen examples known, and certainly less than 20.

Now if you think about the number of coins that can be made in a few days, you can see that's a very poor survival rate. Though when you consider there have been two major recoinages (1696 and 1816) in addition to the loss due to wear, physical loss or clipping/illegal melting, it's perhaps surprising that any hammered coins have survived at all!

While siege coins were probably made in quantity, it wasn't in isolation. Coin would already be circulating so it wasn't as if an entire year's worth of new coinage was needed. Consequently it's likely that compared to the number of officialy issued coins struck at the Tower mint from regular dies, the number of obsidional pieces would have been small to start with. Newark was a mainstay of the royalist cause for three years and under siege twice.

Scarborough by contrast was under siege for 'only' 5 months and Scarborough coin was struck, not by value as at Newark (where plate was cut to the relevant denomination) but by weight, pieces being weighed and then stamped with the value of their silver content. Hence there are a number of very odd, and consequently scarce, amounts like this one (two shillings and tenpence).

As for the £58K, well, I have a few coins for which only a handful of examples are known. I suspect Rob has some that are scarcer, perhaps unique. If price was just down to rarity we'd be very happy! But of course it's actually down to how many people want a coin and how much they are prepared to pay .. and sentiment plays a large part of that. If a Montague or Lockett paid a lot for a particular coin type in the last century and few or no further examples have turned up it will command much more than a coin that was only recognised as a new type in 1995 and which last sold on the open market for a few hundred quid.

And talking of few examples, I have a very rare Charles I shilling, a Sharp E1/3. Only three examples known. OK, it's only in poor condition, so I'm not going to ask £58K, that would be ridiculous! £5,000 will be quite enough.

[Rob 3,106]

I'll second what Richard is saying. I'm currently working on the Carey commission output and trying to assign different issues to specific places and times. For most of the coinage the picture is reasonably straightforward, but when you have some documentary evidence (now lost!) that says 'Rude the Coyner struck coins from 277 ounces of plate at Hereford in Oct/Nov 1644', how are you supposed to assign that to a specific issue? First of all, 277 ounces of plate would only make between 500 & 600 halfcrowns, which was the main denomination of provincial coins struck. A survival rate of well under 1% immediately tells you that there may be one or two examples extant or possibly none, but more would be very fortunate for the researcher. Some have a better survival rate - e.g. the provincial unites were probably presentation pieces and so kept by the recipient implying a much better percentage remaining intact, but the majority of dies used across the period are only known from a handful of coins to three figures in isolated cases.

As for the value of unique pieces, it is as always determined by supply and demand. There will frequently be a premium of sorts to be paid for a rare/unique type within a series whether common or scarce, but nothing like the premium attached to a universally almost unobtainable series. My Shrewsbury D23 halfcrown has a known population of 1. The reverse die, which is the rare bit, is only known from another coin where the die is paired with a shilling obverse, but that is in a museum. The premium for this coin is about a third over that of a commoner, but still fairly rare D22 in the same grade. The price however is only 5% or so of some indisputably commoner Scarborough pieces. i.e it is the mint rarity that drives the market. At the stratospheric levels of Scarborough coinage, there will always be a handful of people willing to pay a premium to get their hands on an example and then it's a case of who blinks first.

The question of soldiers' pay is an interesting one. The daily rate for a horse and man was 2/6d, for a foot soldier and gun 8d to 1/- ish. It varied throughout the period. Most Royalist forces were mounted, so halfcrowns are the commonest denomination. The local population was levied and the contribution distributed amongst the troops. Coin would be used first and any plate collected made into coin as required. Consequently there are no fixed ratios of denominations corresponding to the rates of pay.

[Coinery 1,011]

A great and interesting read, thank-you, gentleman! It would make a fabulous collection, a seige collection, that is!

Just out of interest, are the Newark punches a one-off? Has any investigation been carried out into the die numbers for each denomination, are they likely unique?

[Rob 3,106]

A great and interesting read, thank-you, gentleman! It would make a fabulous collection, a seige collection, that is!

Just out of interest, are the Newark punches a one-off? Has any investigation been carried out into the die numbers for each denomination, are they likely unique?

The best reference is probably Nelson's, 'Obsidional Money of the Great Rebellion 1642-1649', published in about 1905, but reprinted in 1976. The ISBN for this is 0 903681 06 4. No they aren't unique.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Rob