Minor GB Penny Queries - Etched 1860 ?, Lower 90 in 1890

[The Bee 126]

Hi

Apologies for troubling the list so soon. Having read through Secret Santa's Penny Varieties, I decided to be a bit methodical and work through all of my Victorian pennies, to see if I had anything variety wise which had escaped me so far. I was following up searching for different date widths for 1889 - 1893 pennies and so far checked 1889 - 1892 - sadly they all look the same

I did however find while sorting out the pennies a 1860 penny where the date on the reverse has the appearance of being etched in - so you just have outline of the date, I assume its an odd form of damage, as I can make out the same effect on BRITT REG, the coin has been shined (by a previous owner) and is in terrible condition so it doesn't photograph that well - but great to get your thoughts 

Also thought I'd share a 1890 Penny where the 90 is slightly lower than the 18 - I'd not noticed it before my assumption being that its probably fairly common 

And I wondered what years you would recommend I should check for "date widths" aside from 1877 and 1889-92 ?  

Thank you for your help !

Very Best Regards

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

[PWA 1967 2,127]

The 1890 is a known variety and in the Gouby book BP1890Aa ( Scarce) , 14 Teeth with the 90 entered lower and not in alignment.

[secret santa 2,325]

Yes, Michael Gouby lists many date variations in his book and I don't think it would be fair or acceptable to reproduce them all on my website.

[secret santa 2,325]

3 hours ago, The Bee said:

I did however find while sorting out the pennies a 1860 penny where the date on the reverse has the appearance of being etched in - so you just have outline of the date, I assume its an odd form of damage, as I can make out the same effect on BRITT REG, the coin has been shined (by a previous owner) and is in terrible condition so it doesn't photograph that well - but great to get your thoughts 

Very difficult to comment based on that photo.

[The Bee 126]

Thank you PWA 1967 and Secret Santa.

By any chance is the book you mentioned by Michael Goulby "The British Bronze Penny 1860 - 1970" ? I've been trying (without success) to track a copy down !

I only recently managed to get Michael Freeman's "Bronze Coinage of GB" 2006 edition (I only had the1985 edition prior to that) 

On the 1860 I will try to get a better image. My guess is some kind of damage. The date and legend appear in outline only. In the date 1860 the 8 there is an S shape which is thinner at the end and fatter in the middle and the other two parts of the 8 would appear to pass under the S

Very Best Regards and thanks again

Richard

P.S. I think I have found examples of two widths in 1893 and 2 in 1877 (excluding the wider one) just need to work out on the 1877 whether the slightly narrower date one is the scarce one !

 

 

 

[The Bee 126]

Hi

Apologies , I've had another go at the 1860 penny with the date appearing as an outline

Not sure whether these photos might help ?

Very Best Regards

Richard 

P.S. Thank you again on the 1890

 

[PWA 1967 2,127]

The book (Binder) is called "The british Bronze penny 1860-1901" and was printed in 2009 but sold out now.Although if you do find find one some have extra pages which were added in 2020.They are hard to find and unless your lucky not cheap ,even more so with the update (extra pages) but worth looking for especially for varieties and date widths which a lot are not recorded in any other book.Date widths for the early years are not included though as it says in the book to numerous to list them all. 

 

Edited September 22, 2024 by PWA 1967

[secret santa 2,325]

13 hours ago, The Bee said:

By any chance is the book you mentioned by Michael Goulby "The British Bronze Penny 1860 - 1970" ? I've been trying (without success) to track a copy down !

This was Michael's first book (published in 1986) and is useful as it covers Edward VII to Elizabeth II.

The Victoria edition came later (2009 as Pete says).

[The Bee 126]

Many thanks PWA 1967 and Secret Santa

Sounds like the "The British Bronze Penny 1860-1901" is quite scarce, but essential reading. I will have to be as patient as I am when newspaper collecting, and hopefully a copy will turn up !

Very Best Regards

Thanks again

5 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The book (Binder) is called "The british Bronze penny 1860-1901" and was printed in 2009 but sold out now.Although if you do find find one some have extra pages which were added in 2020.They are hard to find and unless your lucky not cheap ,even more so with the update (extra pages) but worth looking for especially for varieties and date widths which a lot are not recorded in any other book.Date widths for the early years are not included though as it says in the book to numerous to list them all. 

 

 

[Mr T 175]

I saw one of the Gouby books on ebay a while ago - keep your eyes peeled.

[Peckris 2 2,127]

On 9/22/2024 at 9:56 AM, secret santa said:

This was Michael's first book (published in 1986) and is useful as it covers Edward VII to Elizabeth II.

Particularly useful as he divides the pages into horizontal strips so you can align any obverse with any reverse to see both together.

[The Bee 126]

10 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Particularly useful as he divides the pages into horizontal strips so you can align any obverse with any reverse to see both together.

Many thanks Peckris 2. I do now have a copy of the British Bronze Penny 1860-1901 (arrived yesterday) and it is a great read.

Interestingly the 1986 earlier volume covering 1860-1970 is only available in 9 libraries (according to World Cat), 8 of which are in the UK and 1 in South Africa.

So I have set some searches in hopes one will turn up in time.

Very Best Regards

[Peckris 2 2,127]

On 10/10/2024 at 8:37 AM, The Bee said:

Interestingly the 1986 earlier volume covering 1860-1970 is only available in 9 libraries (according to World Cat), 8 of which are in the UK and 1 in South Africa.

So I have set some searches in hopes one will turn up in time.

Best of luck - hope you manage to find one.

[The Bee 126]

FYI 

I have ordered the 2nd edition updates from Michael Gouby, for the British Bronze Penny 1860-1901 (mine copy being the 1st edition). Apparently not everyone who bought the 1st edition upgraded to the 2nd edition and so Michael had spare copies of the update. 

The first edition was a really interesting read (well I found it really interesting anyway !).

My plan is to re-organize my Bronze pennies more clearly into a "best penny" date run 1860 - 1970 which I can upgrade from time to time.

Then using separate trays from 1860 onward I'll use those for varieties / date widths etc. 1860 onwards and label them as I go, so its easy to read what is where at a glance. Clearly it is impossible to have every variety (just as its impossible to collect every 18th/19th century newspaper title - some have tried) but I can upgrade the varieties when the opportunity arises.

It will hopefully avoid the pennies getting out of control and help with structure.  

I will probably also try for a few half penny varieties as well as upgrading and some more farthing varieties over time. I have the beginnings of date runs prior to 1860 with some common varieties (and some fakes/non regal)- but for silver it will just be date runs.

Best Regards !    

[The Bee 126]

Penny 1874 H 

Hi, Started to sort my Pennies yesterday so I don't totally lost. While working through 1874 penny widths I checked the obverse of one, and it looks a bit different from the rest

Its worn, but the back of Queen Victoria's head is almost touching the B in Britt, the rest have a much larger gap. The only Obverses I seem to be able to find seem to be a bit scarce, so I assume I'm missing something obvious. Great to get feedback on what the Obverse is (assume reverse is standard). Any thoughts much appreciated !

 

 

 

 

 

[Paddy 1,719]

I always struggle with varieties, but using @secret santa's website I think the Obverse is fairly standard Freemen 6, as the portrait of Victoria is the younger version.

Potentially it is the reverse that may be more interesting. It looks to me that it might be Freeman "I" instead of the more usual "G", which would make it much scarcer.

I'm sure some of the better penny experts will correct me! A close up of the reverse around the lighthouse might help.

 

[jelida 1,314]

I would say it is Freeman obverse 6, Gouby J with the close B and complete rose brooch on bodice. The reverse is Freeman G (introduced in 1861) , wide date and sea extends over linear circle.

Jerry

[Martinminerva 330]

It's a normal 6+G using Freeman's notation, and in Gouby it's a BP1874He (12 beads date width - count inclusively!)

It is not a reverse I @Paddy as the sea on Bee's one crosses the linear circle, whereas on rare reverse I it adjoins it only.

Edited October 21, 2024 by Martinminerva

[The Bee 126]

3 hours ago, Martinminerva said:

It's a normal 6+G using Freeman's notation, and in Gouby it's a BP1874He (12 beads date width - count inclusively!)

It is not a reverse I @Paddy as the sea on Bee's one crosses the linear circle, whereas on rare reverse I it adjoins it only.

Hi Martin

Many thanks , no its not an I, I think I thrown a bit by the closeness of the back of QV's head to B in Britt which seemed closer than other 6 + G's

Currently I only have one example of an 1874H obverse where the sea doesn't cross the linear circle  . I have it as 7 + G

 

[Martinminerva 330]

Hi again, Richard.

This one above is Freeman reverse H (narrow date, sea does not cross linear circle). Not sure which obverse of course as you haven't shown it!! (More likely 7 than 6 as 6+H is quite scarce).

Reverse I is below - wide date, low date numerals, H mintmark over gap not bead, and sea up to but not across linear circle. But it is properly rare!! I have taken the image from other Richard's website (secretsanta) and I as ever gratefully credit him here - especially given all the silliness that has been going on recently about images of rare pennies!

 

[secret santa 2,325]

Michael's book is on Ebay right now

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/156516874402?itmmeta=01JCNQKJ3XCC0WDJV61ZQSBTBV&hash=item247121f8a2:g:t6QAAOSwvLlnNgnY&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAAwHoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKlZl2vPDZSYJdNrdHO4ptyX27Wa4scxEN0dsIwJwzOynWOwqOsrOznmr5fAl0J9AdKZwRSogkMxpOhLP8Osp6NGGiq%2BnG8gU0C4lfmS6pOYhhXlcPzXmJoeUYm3oA5Ktgy%2BN9E2imUC6hZQ02rHsJnXSOOgblqqmLOfKWSzFCEEbhcRlW3Miwpqh7hn%2F9VSAIOxZPXPGM8X7lkt9QJM3CM6VUCyx%2FhUE9IXPpzmJ0nesg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4iizrflZA

[PWA 1967 2,127]

Thankyou, I bought that as only got asked for one off a new collector a couple of weeks ago and as I told him at the time you dont see them often.

[Paddy 1,719]

Can I ask how much he accepted for it? I made a buy it now offer which was rejected. (PM me if you prefer.)

P

[PWA 1967 2,127]

42 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Can I ask how much he accepted for it? I made a buy it now offer which was rejected. (PM me if you prefer.)

P

I made an offer of £75 without the update, which he can buy seperately if he wants to.

Edited November 15, 2024 by PWA 1967

[The Bee 126]

That's exactly what I did . Very kindly I was able to buy the original version and then Michael had spare updates and sent me one after he got back from holiday (I guess not everyone who bought an original copy were still collecting when the update came out). So currently it "lives" on the floor usually open for me to refer to (my books "work" rather then sit on shelves for display purposes). Told Michael that its a brilliant read (if you like that sort of thing of course) ! 

Very Best Regards