Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Kipster

Confirmation of Dies Please

Recommended Posts

Morning all,

Just wondered if you could possibly confirm the die pairing on this 1861 halfpenny for me please? I'm sure I haven't asked before, so please forgive me if it's a duplicate. I'm using the great halfpennyvariety site to work it out, and I think this is 7 + G (missing rocks?) variety. Be grateful if someone could confirm for me please. Thanks.

 

1861HalfpennyA.jpg

1861HalfpennyB.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes me too 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great, thanks both. Getting the hang of these now, so that's my Saturday afternoon sorted out...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I right that the "no rocks" variant occurs both for 1861 and 1862? I appear to have two of the latter, but could not find mention of either in Freeman.

(One is spare if there is anyone after an example - PM me.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reverse G is 1861 to 1873 - I think there's a small rock but I guess it's the "no rocks" reverse?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The lack of rocks seems to be a fairly plain variation and I'm sure was discussed on this forum before. Here are pics of my two 7+Gs, one with rocks and one without:

45284064_1862HD7GF2891-side.thumb.JPG.23fb2ee48508202db5e550c7cb6a7257.JPG

My 1861 7+G clearly has rocks, so it was news to me that there was a no rocks variety of this too.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hm is it die fill? I dug up some pictures of reverse G and it looks like the rocks can be quite weak.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't think it is die fill, as there's no sign of it on my example.

c1207-1862 halfpenny no rocks TYPE EXAMPLE - Copy.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah yeah I checked Mal Lewendon's photos and he notes a reverse G with no rocks, but doesn't give much more detail than that I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iain Dracott's article just says some reverse G have missing rocks, mainly from 1861 to 1863. More research required I guess.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And a little bit of an update to this - I haven't done a in-depth study of the G with rock/G with no rock from 1861 to 1873, but I have had a brief look.

From 1863 to 1873, the pictures I have at hand all seem to show a rock (though a bit faint at times).

More interestingly, the 1862 with A to left of lighthouse has no rocks while the 1862 with A to right of lighthouse has a rock, at least from the handful of images I've looked at (https://www.baldwin.co.uk/product/victoria-1837-1901-halfpenny-1862-die-letter-a-rrr/https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=124&searchlot=555&searchtype=2https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=162&searchlot=2355&searchtype=2).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr T said:

And a little bit of an update to this - I haven't done a in-depth study of the G with rock/G with no rock from 1861 to 1873, but I have had a brief look.

From 1863 to 1873, the pictures I have at hand all seem to show a rock (though a bit faint at times).

More interestingly, the 1862 with A to left of lighthouse has no rocks while the 1862 with A to right of lighthouse has a rock, at least from the handful of images I've looked at (https://www.baldwin.co.uk/product/victoria-1837-1901-halfpenny-1862-die-letter-a-rrr/https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=124&searchlot=555&searchtype=2https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=162&searchlot=2355&searchtype=2).

Hmmm. The thing that stands out most here is the different positions of the two As to left of the lighthouse. The grotty one appears to be well circulated and presumably genuine as nobody would counterfeit a coin with a small A by the lighthouse when the majority of examples were bereft of any mark. The high grade one looks genuine too, so where does that leave the letters being a means of die identification? Back to the drawing board? The obvious inference is that not all As are equal, so with multiple dies extant, the letter must refer to something else - week, coining press, metal mix?

Edited by Rob
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Rob said:

Hmmm. The thing that stands out most here is the different positions of the two As to left of the lighthouse. The grotty one appears to be well circulated and presumably genuine as nobody would counterfeit a coin with a small A by the lighthouse when the majority of examples were bereft of any mark. The high grade one looks genuine too, so where does that leave the letters being a means of die identification? Back to the drawing board? The obvious inference is that not all As are equal, so with multiple dies extant, the letter must refer to something else - week, coining press, metal mix?

Clearly, the A is for the original die sinker Algernon, but he died, so Archibald took over. He thought he was better and didn't fancy his work being associated with that scoundrel Algernon, so he put the die letter to the other side of the lighthouse. Then along came Augustine who put his A anywhere he felt like, and didn't care what size it was. Sounds logical to me. Simples!!

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More interestingly, the 1862 with A to left of lighthouse has no rocks.

Not true.

1590148979_RevGdieA2zoom.jpg.7b516a49943d0827af1ebd00539ca349.jpg

Edited by secret santa
amandment
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Not true.

1590148979_RevGdieA2zoom.jpg.7b516a49943d0827af1ebd00539ca349.jpg

Mr T said that, not me. 

My point revolves around the different A marked dies and the use of the die letter in general. I appreciate the die letters are used with reverses E(B), F(C) & G(A) which would imply they are comparing the 3 designs, but why would they be comparing them in 1862 when all three were used in various obv/rev die pairs the year before? It isn't as if they had no data to go on given the large output in 1861. Unless they suddenly ran into a problem with rev. G for whatever reason and felt the need to revert to an earlier die to see if something could be improved. Then to have at least 3 different A dies raises the question as to why more than one was needed. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob

You were too quick off the mark - I amended it immediately to remove your name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is very true;  if for die longevity studies why use the same marker more than once? If such studies were ‘in house’, then just collect and count/weigh the output from the die in question before release into circulation. If for studies of coinage in circulation, how would you ever reliably track them with such a small output ? You would have to search through massive numbers of circulating pennies if the ratio of extant coins is a true reflection of mintage. Perhaps for dispersal studies, eg town x is given only ‘A’ halfpennies,  and a month later is revisited to determine the proportion of marked 1862 halfpennies left? All very strange. But there must be a logical explanation.

Jerry

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, DaveG38 said:

Clearly, the A is for the original die sinker Algernon, but he died, so Archibald took over. He thought he was better and didn't fancy his work being associated with that scoundrel Algernon, so he put the die letter to the other side of the lighthouse. Then along came Augustine who put his A anywhere he felt like, and didn't care what size it was. Sounds logical to me. Simples!!

Incidentally,  Algernon's wife was the first to get that nasty hospital bug, so they named it 'Mrs.A' after her....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Incidentally,  Algernon's wife was the first to get that nasty hospital bug, so they named it 'Mrs.A' after her....

I think we have the basis for a BNJ article developing on this subject.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1862 A to LEFT of Lighthouse - Nearer to Rim

Poor quality, difficult to see, but I believe the rocks are there.

 

1862 A to LEFT of Lighthouse - Nearer to Rim.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1862 A to LEFT of Lighthouse - Nearer to the Lighthouse 

Better quality,  faint, but the rocks are there. 

1862 A to LEFT of Lighthouse - Nearer to Lighthouse.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting, there are more die letter A examples than I expected.

Anyway, left with more questions than answers as usual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×