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I do have a yh half sov I found it the other day but any other value would be great (that a john cooke and sons )

IMG_20230124_0004.jpg

Edited by copper123

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Browse phrases beginning with:
 
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T UV W XYZ Full List
 
 
 
 

What's the meaning of the phrase 'Know your onions'?

To be experienced in or knowledgeable about a subject.

What's the origin of the phrase 'Know your onions'?

The English grammarian and lexicographer C. T. (Charles Talbut) Onions was an editor of the Oxford English Dictionary from 1895 and continued to write reference works throughout a long and distinguished career. His last work was The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, 1966, which was published a year after his death. If I knew as much etymology as he did I could certainly claim to 'know my onions', and it is tempting to assume that this is where the phrase originated.

Know your onionsIf the 'onions' referred to in the phrase is indeed human rather than vegetable, there is another Mr. Onions that could be our man. S. G. Onions (they were strong on initials in those days) created sets of coins which were issued to English schools from 1843 onwards. These were teaching aids intended to help children learn £.s.d. (pounds, shillings and pence). They looked similar to real coins and had inscriptions like '4 Farthings make 1 Penny' or, as in the example pictured, '12 Pence make 1 shilling'. We can imagine that 'knowing your Onions' might be coined, so to speak, in those circumstances.

The first known use of 'know your onions' in print, in the 1920s, tends to argue against either of the above men being involved. While it is true that the phrase originated at a time when C. T. Onions had established a reputation, the match between the phrase and his name is just a coincidence. Know your onions is in fact an American phrase. There are many references to it in print there from the 1920s onward, but none in the UK or elsewhere until the middle of the century; for example, this from Harper's Magazine, March 1922:

"Mr. Roberts knows his onions, all right."

Another example comes soon afterwards, in The Lima News, May 1923:

"The Columbus statement declares that the league is ready to give the Donahey boom every aid and comfort. Of course! Why not? Governor Donahey knows his onions..."

Know your onionsOther phrases that refer to knowing - 'know the ropes', 'doesn't know s*** from Shinola' etc. allude to specific items as the focus of the knowledge. Other 1920s variants of 'know your onions' are 'know your oil/oats/apples' etc. The only one that caught on and is still in common use is 'know your onions'. So, why onions? Well, as the citation above asks - why not? Explanations that relate the phrase to knowledgeable vegetable gardeners, or even to C. T. or S. G. Onions, are just trying too hard. 1920s America was a breeding ground for wacky phrases (see the bee's knees for some examples) and this is just another of those.

See other phrases that were coined in the USA.

 

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LOL    well myth and etymology ...sometimes these things can stick around for decades before they are applied.....  I am going to stick with coins ....even if toys...as the source ....

 

 

I am in need of the half crown and the Crown  and half Sov  well quite a lot of them really LOL  perhaps I shall not bother too much with them....

Edited by DrLarry

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4 hours ago, copper123 said:

Very kind - I accept your offer - I will of course send you back something of about equal value

A pic up from the York coin fair this last weekend - almost certainly a Moore counter issued for use in schools which were starting to take off at this time due to a health interest in education in the 1850's

IMG_20230124_0003.jpg

the only toy coin I have! the reverse says 12 PENCE MAKE ONE SHILLING

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I think the problem with the other denominations below the 12 pennies make one shilling is the age 1840s and the size shilling is 13mm;sixpence 10mm; groat 8mm; farthing 11.5mm. I am sure they got easily lost.  Rogers says that they are reported to have presented in a wire mesh bag. Page 31 section 09 the reference taken from Magney.  I'm not sure if any examples are extant. 

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16 hours ago, copper123 said:

I do have a yh half sov I found it the other day but any other value would be great (that a john cooke and sons )

IMG_20230124_0004.jpg

They only made the half Sov   John Cooke .....It was an advertising token of sorts I think 

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People have suggested a link with Lauer in the production of J Cooke half sovereigns because of the damage on the O of SOV reading SCO I am not sure this its the evidence I have listed below he typical SCVEREIGN  SCO error and the John Cooke seen often ...the damage to the O is very different 

 

CM230201-132412001 (340x337).jpgCM230201-132440002 (340x335).jpg

CM230122-125201010 (319x640).jpg

Edited by DrLarry

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these are a funny group of new Lauer imitations of his imitations ...I suppose you know you have been successful when people try to copy your work clearly pretty badly !

CM230201-133843004 (334x340).jpgCM230201-133921005 (338x340).jpg535b ???

 

CM230201-133946006 (340x340).jpgCM230201-134002007 (340x339).jpg

CM230201-132440002 (340x335).jpgCM230201-132412001 (340x337).jpg Original Lauer 

 

535 appears to have a different bust in the section on imitation lauer in Rogers page 68 and I have attempted to cross reference with the collection in the Fitzwilliam Museum but they have no catalogue numbers that relate to the text , shame really but I suppose finding someone to do it might be a little monotonous  

Edited by DrLarry

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Last night a small Lauer toy coin box for the United States sold for £160 .  Admittedly is is very rare I have asked the seller permission to use the photos I'll add later.  Clearly there are collectors willing to pay high prices. 

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Yes they are cheap really , few people knew what the original contents were , a lot got emptied of the coins and used to hold needles or pins things like that very few were left with the coins in esp after the first world war when anything connected with germany was viewed with hatred

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19 hours ago, copper123 said:

Yes they are cheap really , few people knew what the original contents were , a lot got emptied of the coins and used to hold needles or pins things like that very few were left with the coins in esp after the first world war when anything connected with germany was viewed with hatred

Yes I am sure the war and anti German thinking  especially the Nurmburg connection resulted in a mass dumping.  I was thinking the other day why it would be that there are no Dutch lauer coins.  Or Netherlands more accurately.  

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10 hours ago, DrLarry said:

Yes I am sure the war and anti German thinking  especially the Nurmburg connection resulted in a mass dumping.  I was thinking the other day why it would be that there are no Dutch lauer coins.  Or Netherlands more accurately.  

A list of all counties in europe would be nice

seeing as i only know about 6

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Funny enough hatred of anything german lasted well into the seventies and early eighties (I remember a few old timers from the eighties that always refused to buy german made tools and cars), when it turned more to jealousy as their economy was not riped apart by the thatcher goverment and had a more progresive aproach in europe, indeed turning into the leading light .

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1 hour ago, copper123 said:

Funny enough hatred of anything german lasted well into the seventies and early eighties (I remember a few old timers from the eighties that always refused to buy german made tools and cars)

I remember the mid-70s Fawlty Towers episode 'The Germans' which totally ripped the p*ss out of that anti-German sentiment.

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On 2/5/2023 at 9:20 PM, copper123 said:

A list of all counties in europe would be nice

seeing as i only know about 6

Well, you must live in a small world as there's 48 in the UK for a start, unless you don't consider us in Europe. As for the rest of Europe, I guess 26 in the Irish Republic, as non-English speaking countries will use a different word.

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On 2/5/2023 at 9:20 PM, copper123 said:

A list of all counties in europe would be nice

seeing as i only know about 6

I will list all the Lauer Coin sets for Europe in the 1880's for you I assume that is hat you mean? 

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13 hours ago, copper123 said:

Funny enough hatred of anything german lasted well into the seventies and early eighties (I remember a few old timers from the eighties that always refused to buy german made tools and cars), when it turned more to jealousy as their economy was not riped apart by the thatcher goverment and had a more progresive aproach in europe, indeed turning into the leading light .

yes very true these kind of anti country hatreds last hundreds of years .  Many Afrikaners still have a dislike of the English because of the Boer War feelings run deep of the concentration Camps of families..... so a rejection of all things German  that soon after the first and second World wars is unsurprising.    

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5 hours ago, DrLarry said:

I will list all the Lauer Coin sets for Europe in the 1880's for you I assume that is hat you mean? 

yes thats it

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7 hours ago, DrLarry said:

yes very true these kind of anti country hatreds last hundreds of years .  Many Afrikaners still have a dislike of the English because of the Boer War feelings run deep of the concentration Camps of families..... so a rejection of all things German  that soon after the first and second World wars is unsurprising.    

My father's side of the family are still in Kitchener, Ontario.

In 1916 they held a referendum to change the township's name to that from....Berlin.....

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20 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

My father's side of the family are still in Kitchener, Ontario.

In 1916 they held a referendum to change the township's name to that from....Berlin.....

dangerous things referendums.... (I am assuming named after  Kitchener in memory of his death in 1916) bit ironic really  to name it after Kitchener was one of the main proponents of the concentration camps in the Boer War ....still I suppose in the hands of the "victors" such things become an irrelevant part of history at least a city might be said to have a mix of meanings and inhabitants that are for and against any policies .....it becomes much easier to examine an individuals life. 

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23 hours ago, copper123 said:

yes thats it

Austria, Belgium; Denmark;France; Germany; Greece; Hungary Italy; Spain;Sweden; Switzerland;Portugal; and Britain seem to be the only european issues 

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many thanks and keep up the good work finding these lovely little coins as you the the lowlands or holland are strangely missing , strange that one .

The map of europe has changed quite a lot since 1918  austria is quite a recent addition isn't it? I find it strange they are in there as well .

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3 hours ago, copper123 said:

many thanks and keep up the good work finding these lovely little coins as you the the lowlands or holland are strangely missing , strange that one .

The map of europe has changed quite a lot since 1918  austria is quite a recent addition isn't it? I find it strange they are in there as well .

No the Austro Hungarian empire was always quite large covering most of the Balkans as well I think they then invaded parts of poland I think ??/could be wrong in the 18th and continued a powerful seat with a few revolutions in the 19th C .

 It was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire with the Habsburgs from the 14th C .  and after the war the multiple principalities of Germany and Prussia  were broken up I think.  I am sure it all got a bit confusing during the Napoleonic wars.  Not helped earlier I am sure by the cutting the head of Marie Antoinette an austrian archduchess.   

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On 2/6/2023 at 9:42 PM, Peckris 2 said:

I remember the mid-70s Fawlty Towers episode 'The Germans' which totally ripped the p*ss out of that anti-German sentiment.

I heard this morning, on Radio 4, that they are bringing back fawlty Towers I am not sure it would be the same without Prunella Scales ( who I have to assume could not possibly be involved) 

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3 hours ago, copper123 said:

many thanks and keep up the good work finding these lovely little coins as you the the lowlands or holland are strangely missing , strange that one .

The map of europe has changed quite a lot since 1918  austria is quite a recent addition isn't it? I find it strange they are in there as well .

I enjoy finding them 

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