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azda

So, Brexit....What's happening?

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3 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

The union should be solid, but isn't. Scotland wants a different outcome to England.....and the Northern Irish question - complex beyond belief.  

Center of the world those who are into reference verse every time what's is happening on the UK they have reference verse how UK will solve it many might see three can be united as one in this obscure situation just a thought.  By history it have a high chances they will solve it I will just wait and see if it unfold?. 

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Not short of writers it might be another recording to those who follow this kind of thought or works for compilation or safe keeping if it is true or be fruitful or another series of events others are also thinking of it and referencing it just a thought or opinion https://erikagrey-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/erikagrey.com/index.php/2016/06/28/the-bomb-called-brexit-its-fallout-and-bible-prophecy.html/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=http%3A%2F%2Ferikagrey.com%2Findex.php%2F2016%2F06%2F28%2Fthe-bomb-called-brexit-its-fallout-and-bible-prophecy.html

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1 hour ago, josie said:

Not short of writers it might be another recording to those who follow this kind of thought or works for compilation or safe keeping if it is true or be fruitful or another series of events others are also thinking of it and referencing it just a thought or opinion https://erikagrey-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/erikagrey.com/index.php/2016/06/28/the-bomb-called-brexit-its-fallout-and-bible-prophecy.html/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=http%3A%2F%2Ferikagrey.com%2Findex.php%2F2016%2F06%2F28%2Fthe-bomb-called-brexit-its-fallout-and-bible-prophecy.html

Are you some kind of Russian troll bot? I am struggling to make sense of any of your previous posts. I had seen people saying Bots have been posting on Brexit stuff on Youtube but i was sceptical but now i am not sure. 

Edited by Ukstu

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2 minutes ago, Ukstu said:

Are you some kind of Russian troll bot? I am struggling to make sense of any of your previous posts. I had seen people saying Trolls have been posting on Brexit stuff on Youtube but i was sceptical but now i am not sure. 

Josie has been around for years, just not posted recently. English is not his first language.

  • Thanks 1

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Ahh thanks Rob. Apologies Josie. No malice intended i just saw the 4 posts and thought perhaps it was some kind of Bot. 

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Agreed it is a mess now but i was never keen on Mrs Mays Brexit in name only deal. 

What's next and will it be in keeping with Democracy?  Well that's anyone's guess now this thing's had more twists n turns than a rollercoaster and at times been dirtier than a baby's nappy. 

I do hope it's resolved democratically and in a civilised manner though going forward. 

 

Edited by Ukstu

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3 hours ago, Sword said:

I just can't see how Parliament can get a majority view in anything except a second referendum. 

My prediction would be:

1) Endless debates 

2) No consensus 

3) Article 50 Delayed

4) Second Referendum 

5) Remain wins this time

6) Decades of bitter arguments with Leave saying that they have been robbed. Frequent calls of a third referendum.

7) God help us!

Why would a majority view in Parliament for a second referendum be any more legitimate than the original referendum? Ok, I appreciate we have a problem here with the decision of the people given to a bunch of opponents to implement. A group who in the main reject the outcome and can't be trusted to deliver, but could work for and possibly deliver a no Brexit outcome would be an absolute disgrace, and I think would lead to considerable unrest on the streets.

The view of those MPs saying we should have a second, third etc referendum until we produce the right outcome would be entirely in keeping with EU standards, so one can only assume that MPs are comfortable with their emasculation from decades of being told what to do by Brussels and have lost the will/ability to do things first and foremost for the people of these islands.

It should not have escaped people that the French and German leaders recently agreed to discuss, formulate and enact a policy of greater integration with cross-border projects connecting the two countries on various subjects whereby there is joint ownership of projects. This onward drive to a European superstate is the reality of the future and just one aspect of the EU that voters rejected. If this country's MPs aspire to be under permanent Franco-German control (because the EU is essentially their project, being the two major economic powers), then they should be honest and say so. 40+ years of EU membership has had mixed benefits for this country, but it is fair to say that since the introduction of the common currency, that path has been resolutely down. The hopelessly undervalued German economy vs the Euro has ensured they will be in clover for years and years to the detriment of the rest of the EU, which probably helped the French decision. Yet despite this, you still find a majority of our politicians refuse to contemplate going down a path that would free us from their control. Why? Germany is on a free lunch relative to the other member states courtesy of the Euro rate, and the French want to see the back of us anyway as it would improve their clout in the 2 country ruling elite.

Somehow we have to get a no deal outcome from this mess as it is the only way to no longer be subservient to Brussels. All other options would negate the referendum result.

Edited by Rob
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2 hours ago, Ukstu said:

Are you some kind of Russian troll bot? I am struggling to make sense of any of your previous posts. I had seen people saying Bots have been posting on Brexit stuff on Youtube but i was sceptical but now i am not sure. 

Thanks Rob, no worries Uktsu it is not the first time it happens due to comma and punctuation and other reason such us not finishing the sentence properly or every line is like a thought hang in the air like three dots waiting to be finished the core of the four post is that UK is the three horn in revelation comprise of Scotland England. and Ireland,  if they UK and others are not short or lacking in writters inspired to be prophetic or manifestation of eye or forseer in revelation it means they are choosen and in God's favor any harm done in God's own will have consequences someone have to say it  to inform all parties so all we know even UK is in disadvantage position now God can move anything on its right time UK have long history of resilience how much more if there action is a fulfilment on what is written I will wait for proof if it will happen and I  hope they will weather this one and will not cost alot or in other words bad weather comes to those who touch them just a thought.

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9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

There has to be a 2nd referendum, with three options, a) remain, b) go with Mrs May's deal, c) leave on WTO terms.

Splitting the leave vote would hardly be democratic, unless you mean that remain would need 67% to beat the sum of the other 2 options.  But how could you even have remain on the referendum, when that question has already been asked and rejected.  It is only a failure of parliament to enact the wishes of the people that is the problem.

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15 minutes ago, Nick said:

Splitting the leave vote would hardly be democratic, unless you mean that remain would need 67% to beat the sum of the other 2 options.  But how could you even have remain on the referendum, when that question has already been asked and rejected.  It is only a failure of parliament to enact the wishes of the people that is the problem.

Correct

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Its seems easier to just walk away than all this BS that's going on, at taxpayers expense i might add............Its a joke, not one of them has a clue or a solution.

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56 minutes ago, azda said:

Its seems easier to just walk away than all this BS that's going on, at taxpayers expense i might add............Its a joke, not one of them has a clue or a solution.

Not sure they can now with the 'wrecking bills' tabled over the last week, restricting spending on a No Deal, and also Parliament taking over the negotiations. The vote of No Confidence also limits the time May has to go back to the EU.

Anything and everything to frustrate the departure is being done, unfortunately even the Labour Party is split, Corbyn wanting to leave as did the majority of Labour voters, while the rest of his Party and Party Members want to stay in.

It seems to me that Parliament are saying don't worry we will fix it for you,  you clearly didn't understand the question and meant Remain.

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May.jpg

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4 hours ago, Nick said:

Splitting the leave vote would hardly be democratic, unless you mean that remain would need 67% to beat the sum of the other 2 options.  But how could you even have remain on the referendum, when that question has already been asked and rejected.  It is only a failure of parliament to enact the wishes of the people that is the problem.

How else could it reasonably be done?

The electorate are infinitely more aware of the full ramifications of Brexit now, than ever they were in 2016, and given the closeness of the vote then, it's entirely possible that a sizeable section of the 2016 leave vote, would now choose to vote remain. Moreover, there was a demographic split in voter intentions then, with the young predominantly voting remain, and the leave vote rising gradually as the demographic got older. Given that it will be younger voters who will be saddled longest with the outcome of Brexit, it's really only fair that the latest cohort to have reached 18 since June 2016, are also allowed to consider the remain option in a second referendum.           

 

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I don't think the question of those too young to vote at the time but are now, is not relevant. This has been and will always be the case, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. I had to wait 41 years to vote on the membership issue, having been a few months too young to do so on the last occasion. I lived with it then and think those affected now should do the same.

The proper time to have had this vote would have been prior to Maastrict or Lisbon, but the country wasn't consulted. Every successive EU treaty reduced the options available for those who are unhappy with EU membership, making the cost and difficulties of leaving increasingly onerous. I do believe this represents the last opportunity we will have to break free from the EU.

There is little evidence of a significant swing in the opinions of voters on this subject. The polls all indicated that we would vote remain in 2016, so why should the figures be more indicative now of a small majority to reject Brexit than they were then. A second referendum could easily result in a similar outcome given the entrenched positions of many. If in the view of Remain the country voted 'the wrong way' in 2016, a 52:48 vote to remain in a second referendum would be no more conclusive this time round, though the argument would undoubtedly be put forward that the country has spoken and we must uphold the result. Vive la difference. The current impasse is simply the result of asking a group of non-believers to act on behalf of people who voted for an opposite view. 

Edited by Rob
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5 hours ago, azda said:

Its seems easier to just walk away than all this BS that's going on, at taxpayers expense i might add............Its a joke, not one of them has a clue or a solution.

Precisely - and whatever option is presented to parliament, there won't be a majority to support it. They just can't agree.

Whatever her shortcomings are, Mrs May is absolutely spot on in saying that those opposing her deal are quick to say what they don't want, but pretty much absent in giving any substantive view as to what they do want.

In conclusion, as parliament are evidently incapable in arriving at a consensus, and collectively (all sides) have manifestly failed to end the uncertainty for both the general public and businesses, it is now incumbent on them to throw the issue open to the electorate in the form of a second referendum, or "people's vote", whatever it may be called. I just don't see any other way forward.

Of course, if it does come to a second referendum, the next thing they will fail to agree on are the questions, and the precise form of wording, as each camp jockeys for position in favour of questions which will suit their side. One will want the WTO option dropped, and the other will want the remain option dropped.          

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It sounds like Parliament is a little like the US Congress...they can't agree on anything either, if fact they won't even talk to each other!

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8 hours ago, azda said:

May.jpg

Not certain what May would say but if you ask Diane Abbott that question, her reply might be something like:

"Ahh, about average?"

"That wouldn't be AK47?"

"Just let me tell you something else"

 

 

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20 hours ago, Rob said:

Why would a majority view in Parliament for a second referendum be any more legitimate than the original referendum? Ok, I appreciate we have a problem here with the decision of the people given to a bunch of opponents to implement. A group who in the main reject the outcome and can't be trusted to deliver, but could work for and possibly deliver a no Brexit outcome would be an absolute disgrace, and I think would lead to considerable unrest on the streets.

 

I agree that a second referendum is not more legitimate the the first. But there is just no way out of the current mess. The MPs don't want May's deal and they don't want a no deal Brexit. They cannot unilaterally cancel Brexit. Hence asking the country again (and hoping for a different outcome) is the easy option out and unite the Parliament. 

Personally, I think it was a terrible idea even to have the first Brexit referendum. The vast majority of people (myself included) just couldn't get on top of the complex issues involved and no one could really foresee all the immense obstacles that would result from Brexit. For example, no one spoke about the backstop before the referendum but people only realised much later that it would be a great stumbling block. 

We had one piece of A4 paper from Remain and one from Leave through our letter boxes and some unconvincing speeches on TV. I for one couldn't make an informed decision from that material. I voted for Remain simply because I knew that the Brexit process would cause too much short and medium term pain and the benefits appear to be speculative. I didn't like the idea of taking a plunge into the unknown.  Even if Brexit is a good idea in principle, I had serious doubts as to whether we have good and dedicated enough politicians to actually make it work. A second referendum is under normal circumstances an unacceptable option in the interest of democracy. But on this occasion, I think it is the least bad of the current options.

Edited by Sword

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On 15 January 2019 at 10:14 PM, josie said:

UK more than Europe, Ireland Scotland England all independent but United in UK and part of EU that can trade globally by its own and with EU regulation policy etc it needed three Ireland Scotland and England to be one just a thought in reality how UK will be one of the major leaders that can say no no yes yes to EU at least the center core of coat of arms of UK other commonwealth nation will follow?.  EU and commonwealth countries through UK in trade etc. 

Aren't they still in Europe? I know we are - Bayern in the Round of 16.

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8 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Aren't they still in Europe? I know we are - Bayern in the Round of 16.

Ireland part of EU and part of UK Ireland free seaport island port both Northern Ireland and Republic if not whole Ireland the problem is or they say is funding for the north UK is paying it free port would be nice Honkong or Singapore style in EU UK all three Independent Republic Ireland Independent Scotland and England but under the Union they have there own Law Parliament and Head of state more than EU leaders elected if not by traditional monarchy seems leaders today they say is like a royalty unelected even pope is elected and have a seat number in EU 666 maybe the Queen may have one since she is the head of Church of England and Head of England etc?.  just a thought  don't know what Bayern 16 is maybe someone can unite monarchy democracy and religion.

Edited by josie

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Free port island port maybe there are more nearer just like some contested land between France and Germany but in a shore between North and Republic so they can trade in free port area just a thought https://www-thejournal-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.thejournal.ie/rockall-explainer-3333490-Apr2017/?amp=1&amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE=#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

Edited by josie

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Just posting I have seen some video that the minister of UK have a hard time entering the EU market don't know the story about it but other reason some article saying is that France and Germany some what merge and instead of getting coal from UK they get it from France and Germany sold  there product,situation coal - oil in the seventies the decimalisation and international reserve the creation of Euro the lost  of production sector of UK and its market or its trade although they have right to abode wonder if they will equate it to trade or residence and citizenship or freedom of movement just like what EU are doing maybe it should be France and UK so that the coat of arms are four or five if Spain wants and its former colonies to freedom of movement since it only needed two years for be a Spanish citizen if a person came from Philippines or make it easier for UK  Canada Australia to became US citizen vise versa every languages have different personality English speaking just a thought.  https://www-thejournal-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.thejournal.ie/rockall-explainer-3333490-Apr2017/?amp=1&amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE=#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

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On 1/16/2019 at 8:18 AM, Nick said:

There has to be a 2nd referendum, with three options, a) remain, b) go with Mrs May's deal, c) leave on WTO terms.

The decisions have to be binary or else 34% of voters could decide for the remaining 66% - how would this go down ? I think you know !

So, it has to be a series of binary decisions and everyone has to vote on each of them

1 Leave or Remain

2 If leave, Deal or No Deal

3 If Deal, Mrs May's deal or WTO

Thus the issue would be decided at stage 1 if Remain gets >50% but goes to stage 2 if Leave gets >50%

At stage 2, with everyone voting, the issue is decided if No Deal wins, else goes to stage 3

At stage 3, with everyone voting, either accept Mrs May's deal or WTO terms.

If everyone follows the rules, you will emerge with something that >50% of the voters voted for.

Too complicated ?

 

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Not sure I like the way you quoted that @secret santa.  You have changed Mike's quote into mine.  It makes it look like I suggested a 2nd referendum - which I most certainly did not.

Edited by Nick

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