opinions on lot 558 of june LCA auction - 1861 8/6

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

Lot 558 June LCA auction... description:

Penny 1861 8 over wiry 6, Gouby AA dies D+d, of the same style as the overdate pictures in Gouby page 41, Fair, Gouby states only one example known, this clearly a second example, Ex-Baldwins Argentum sale 2/11/2012 Lot 558

I would like to have your opinions as to whether the coin matches Gouby's image

I have an example EXACTLY as imaged by LCA but have never really felt that it matched Gouby's image, and have never been able to pinpoint it other than possibly an 8/8.

Your opinions please. I will try to get images of mine posted if I can get to them somehow.

Thanks

 

[terrysoldpennies 787]

9 minutes ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Lot 558 June LCA auction... description:

Penny 1861 8 over wiry 6, Gouby AA dies D+d, of the same style as the overdate pictures in Gouby page 41, Fair, Gouby states only one example known, this clearly a second example, Ex-Baldwins Argentum sale 2/11/2012 Lot 558

I would like to have your opinions as to whether the coin matches Gouby's image

I have an example EXACTLY as imaged by LCA but have never really felt that it matched Gouby's image, and have never been able to pinpoint it other than possibly an 8/8.

Your opinions please. I will try to get images of mine posted if I can get to them somehow.

Thanks

 

In my opinion it could be either , 8 over 6  or  8 over 8 as such , I wouldn't by it .   Terry

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

More to the issue is whether it matches Gouby's image. Has LCA identified it correctly,  or is it something not yet recognized. I'm not so much interested yet in what the overdate actually is, but rather is it properly attributed as the Gouby variety that LCA claims it to be.

[terrysoldpennies 787]

I've had a good look at the picture on page 41 in Goubys    BP 1861 AA . The LCAs  example has the same faint arc to the left of the 8 , which seems to continue through the lower hole at the bottom of the 8 .  No sign of this line continuing on the Gouby example.  It also differs in that the hole at the top of the 8 is smaller , and the first 1 in the date is slightly rotated anticlockwise . Its possibly the same die, at a different stage in its life , but I think its hard to be certain .  I've probably not helped much.     Terry     

[secret santa 2,381]

It doesn't look much like Gouby's example in my opinion. In fact, I'm not sure the condition is good enough to be sure what it is exactly. Maybe in hand one can make a better judgement - I certainly wouldn't buy it based on their photo.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

Here is a close-up of the 8 in my example...

 

 

[Bernie 214]

Here is a better picture of the said variety, probably an 8/8

[Bernie 214]

Close up of 8/8

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

Here is the full reverse..

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

13 minutes ago, Bernie said:

Here is a better picture of the said variety, probably an 8/8

Thanks Bernie,

Can't beat a high grade example for a strong opinion.

Certainly now looks more like an 8/8 as I originally suspected and definitely NOT the variety as imaged by Gouby, nor is it properly attributed in the LCA auction.

Thanks everyone, just needed a little sanity check.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[secret santa 2,381]

Thanks for clearing that one up Bernie - does yours have  obverse 2 ?

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Thanks for clearing that one up Bernie - does yours have  obverse 2 ?

Hi Richard,

Just to keep it clear, mine does have obverse 2, I'm sure Bernie's does too.

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Bernie 214]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Thanks for clearing that one up Bernie - does yours have  obverse 2 ?

The obverse is obverse 2

[brad 4]

8 over 8

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

On 04/12/2017 at 11:42 AM, brad said:

8 over 8

That appears to be the general consensus.....

[1949threepence 3,368]

So this coin became available again at the latest LCA, and I bid for it, and won it - before I became aware of this thread from a couple or so years back. 

Lot No 1253: Penny 1861 8 over wiry 6, Gouby AA dies D+d, of the same style as the overdate pictures in Gouby page 41, with the underlying digit similarly positioned, but of a more wiry style Fair

My fault for not checking properly. It's obverse 2, not 6 - so it's not a 33A. 

But whether 8 over 8 or 8 over 6, not certain. Probably 8 over 8 and misattributed by LCA. Still an interesting acquisition either way  

This is ex Baldwins 3.11.12, Lot 558.  

 

 

   

Edited March 6, 2019 by 1949threepence

[alfnail 869]

I have similar on an F29

[secret santa 2,381]

I've added Bernie's pic to my varieties website.

[mrbadexample 1,006]

19 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

So this coin became available again at the latest LCA, and I bid for it, and won it - before I became aware of this thread from a couple or so years back. 

Lot No 1253: Penny 1861 8 over wiry 6, Gouby AA dies D+d, of the same style as the overdate pictures in Gouby page 41, with the underlying digit similarly positioned, but of a more wiry style Fair   

 

I'd like to know what a "wiry" 6 is? Where else is it used / seen? 

[1949threepence 3,368]

1 minute ago, mrbadexample said:

I'd like to know what a "wiry" 6 is? Where else is it used / seen? 

Well I suppose best described as a thinner line than might be expected - hence wiry. Never heard the expression before though, not as it relates to a coins overdate any rate. 

In a paradoxical sort of way, I'm actually quite pleased I bought it. It will go nicely in the oddments drawer and could prove a talking point in the future.  

[mrbadexample 1,006]

Just now, 1949threepence said:

Well I suppose best described as a thinner line than might be expected - hence wiry. Never heard the expression before though, not as it relates to a coins overdate any rate. 

So do you think it's just a lighter strike so the 6 wasn't fully punched? Otherwise I don't understand it - where did a "wiry" 6 punch come from?

[1949threepence 3,368]

5 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

So do you think it's just a lighter strike so the 6 wasn't fully punched? Otherwise I don't understand it - where did a "wiry" 6 punch come from?

I can't pretend to be an expert on coin minting, and certainly not on letter/numeral repairs - which is where the 8 over 6 and 6 over 8 are touted to originate from. But I'd imagine that it might have to do with the attempted removal of the incorrectly punched number, prior to the correct number being stamped.  

[Colin G. 147]

It is my opinion that this thinner appearance comes from the metal displacement when the die was recut. If you imagine you had stamped a letter into plasticine and then stamped another letter over the top slightly misaligned, the underlying letter would become thinner due to the movement of the plasticine under the pressure of the new stamp. It seems to be quite a common effect with recut letters/digits.

[mrbadexample 1,006]

That makes a good deal of sense, thank you.

[secret santa 2,381]

I agree with Bernie that it's probably a misplaced 8 (from a single digit punch) - it looks much the same as the 1880 over 8 below.