secret santa

I think there may be something in this because the "fatter face" becomes more obvious with wear and so the queen may have noticed in 1892 that the modified obverse was becoming distinctly less flattering with wear (see example below) and requested a reversion to the original obverse R (Freeman 12).

I have now changed this obverse from a "sub-variety" of Obverse R (Freeman 12) to an Unrecorded Obverse R* on the varieties website.

Interestingly, and obviously when you think about it, the versions of 1889 F127 with the missing serifs are the normal obverse R.

As she was with the initial unadopted beaded obverse A and B on the pennies.

I think this theory is gaining ground, especially when you compare the modified obverse to the 1895 veiled head obverse: Modified obverse R Veiled head obverse It may be a prototype stage before the final "old head" design.

I've just flicked through the LCA sold pennies dated 1890-1892 and all the 1890 and 1891 coins have the fatter face and the vast majority of 1892 have the normal obverse although there is at least one that seems to have the fatter variety. I wonder whether there was a subtle attempt to age the queen's portrait (as in 1874) which she then objected to and so they reverted to the previous obverse ?

I've just checked through my dates from 1882 (F114, F115) through to 1894 when obverse R was used and, like Paddy, my 1890 and 1891 pennies all have the fatter chin, but 1882 to 1888 and 1892 to 1894 have the normal chin. It seems strange that this slightly different obverse was used for a 3 year spell in the middle of a 14 year run. I've asked Michael Gouby for his views.

They may be advertised at that cost but I don't expect that they sell for anything but a few cents. Very common indeed.

In addition, the angle of her nose and upper lip differs between the 2 obverse R (Freeman obv 11) photos. All my examples of 1889 obv R (date width variations) have this double chin.

I've taken another look at the two 1889 obverses. Interestingly, I've found that the 1889 F127 which is recorded as Obverse R has a distinct difference to Victoria's jawline as mentioned in several of the above posts. This difference appears unique to the F127 as none of my other Obverse R coins seem to have the slight "double chin" and nor does the 1889 F128 (Obverse S). There are other minor differences around the eye and mouth. It does suggest that F127 has a unique variation of Obverse R, and that Obverse S is a modified version of Obverse R and not a modified version of the F127 obverse. Photos of an 1888 penny (obv R) and 1889 F127 (obv R) are shown below to illustrate the difference together with the F128. 1888 obverse R 1889 F127 obverse R 1889 F128 obverse S

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/146054935124?itmmeta=01J8NK13H2Q4NBQWMF3851N6DP&hash=item22018d7254:g:9cUAAOSwhApm9IB9&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKmw85hwP%2B2o%2BgS5J2Hssq%2FShGwvLODe98Oq96G3i1Iz9JYDf4JZgJP6EsQoYwkO2KbG6ma2LJtqjmhfpK6V7jDi4Hmw4HxlkWkzdbkkTR3JcmN1SvLOsPdcnU9wX1fz3ts4gzbWciDsoLIjkFUeqMDnTDHO0fg2nICiNh7jiESxUSWdP4gwnXeFB%2F3JtOWHKgkT1YNbaE1--EHrekv5M1Vu6M476DpbpexYYvFrq09hFr4wbs8Kz%2BmVR9ysHVPJw%2FJC4QFwNcwUlWImcVazKzia|tkp%3ABk9SR8y4hLPFZA I have messaged the vendor saying that she has seriously undervalued this coin. A penny dated 1985 but bearing the image of Queen Victoria must be priceless.

Maybe in hand things are clearer but the coin appears to be in such a shocking condition that it is very hard to make any firm decisions on it. It is highly unlikely (impossible ?) that an 1874 penny will suddenly turn up after 150 years with a die number on it.

This sounds unlikely. I don't believe there is such a thing as a low tide 1874 penny, and certainly no die numbers. In fact, die numbers 2-5 are only found on 1863 milled bronze pennies. Please post a photo. For more details on varieties of milled pennies, see my penny varieties website below.

Courtesy of Michael Gouby

I don't see any differences.

Not quite sure what you mean by the eclipse on the middle bead - is it the tiny indentation on the top of the middle bead in the picture ? If so, then it will only be detectable on the highest grade specimens, and there aren't many in that condition, although it does seem to be present on all the obverse B coins that I own. It may well be present on my obverse A coins:

Spot on - that tiny remnant of the Order of the Garter at the bottom right of the bust confirms it.

Yup.

Done, thanks.

This was Michael's first book (published in 1986) and is useful as it covers Edward VII to Elizabeth II. The Victoria edition came later (2009 as Pete says).

Very difficult to comment based on that photo.

Yes, Michael Gouby lists many date variations in his book and I don't think it would be fair or acceptable to reproduce them all on my website.

Why don't graders include the Peck or Freeman numbers ? I suspect this has been asked before.