secret santa

Whatever system is adopted, there will always need to be an "owner" to arbitrate on whether a proposed obverse or reverse type is, or is not, a uniquely defined type. For example, Freeman did not distinguish between the 2 obverses used for circulation and proof 1953 pennies, the only difference between them being a single additional border bead and thus a slightly different alignment of legend to beads. Gouby's Victoria reverse ja is so minutely different from reverse j that some may argue that they're essentially the same. Freeman's George VI obverses 1 and 2 differ by the minutest of legend to tooth alignments, so minute that Gouby calls them the same. Good luck (and thick skin) to whoever is prepared to take this on.

I don't think you'll ever get away from having to go back to the "manual" or whatever becomes the central repository of varieties. Unless the naming system contains a lot of free format to catch the particular nature of the uniqueness of the variety such as B over R in BRITT, first 6 over 8, top leaf missing etc etc, you'll never invent a system that immediately captures the nature of the variety. Even with Freeman number, there are so many 1874 variants that I always have to go back to the "manual" to check the die pairing. Gouby's system is not very intuitive when it comes to dates with many variants but at least it is expandable and can cope with new obverses such as the 145 tooth Victoria, and virtually any date width. The important thing is to have a single source of varieties, their names and descriptions, with photographs, with single point maintenance (and maybe a small committee to agree new varieties). Chris P has mentioned producing a "new" Freeman with updated numbers but, if that involves changing existing F numbers, it would be fraught with danger.

I think in an ideal world, Michael Gouby would be the person to maintain a definitive list/database of varieties with associated Freeman number where relevant (just as he does in his books), taking on the role of adjudicator and allocator of identification using his BPYYYYAB coding scheme. Whether he wants to is a different question.

In my opinion, Freeman number will always be the prime definition of variety detail but, because it will become increasingly out of date, it will have more and more omissions. Gouby tends to fill these gaps and his identification system is flexible enough to allow endless introductions and his Victorian penny book is the most exhaustive in terms of listing the different varieties which collectors would pursue and label their coins to. Other publications tend to take the difference in varieties to ever more esoteric and trivial (?) levels of detail but which do provide the collector with something to look out for during periods of coin drought. So, what do people collect ? My theory is that the more money one has to spend on one's collection, the more one concentrates on the "major" varieties, i.e. Freeman and Gouby's original Bronze Penny list (i.e. without the numerous minor date differences etc). The less affluent collector will tend to pursue the esoteric/trivial "varieties" because many of them go unnoticed and can be obtained at less expense. This is my opinion and I may be quite wrong. If I am right, them there won't be much money for the dealer in seeking out these varieties as they won't realise huge prices. I'm basically a Freeman man myself.

Pete If the cleaner struggles or doesn't make a good job of it, send them to me and I'll scan them, distribute copies and return the originals to you. Richard

And the feet of the 4s in the 2 coins are definitely different.

I've just been re-photographing my coins with a fixed aperture of f16 to get sharper focus and I've checked out my 2 1944 specimens. It does appear that the waves on the version with the 4 central to a wave does have more deeply engraved waves, although it may simply be a sharper strike. Certainly, Dave's pictures above do feature quite a worn specimen of the 4 to the left of a wave.

Pete I've messaged you my address and will be happy to send scans to interested parties. Regards Richard

I'd very much appreciate a copy or scan of this article. Richard

My 1914 comment was a typo for 1916 - sorry to get people excited !

I've never heard of one, although many professional boxers have recessed ears and broken teeth.

I totally agree, Rob - this, to me, is one of the most uninteresting penny varieties. I can never actually spot the recessed ear itself and only go by the broken tooth in the border, and so a variety which only appears to differ by half a tooth has to be pretty esoteric.

Good spot Jerry - much rarer than 1916.

The J.C looks OK to me. Just checked it against a random 20p in my pocket and it's the same.

Now, is this grocer's or grocers', given that it seems to apply to all of them ?

And a happy New Year to all (both) my readers.......................

What a great Christmas present !!!!

So would I. http://halls.bidmaster.co.uk/bidcat/detail.asp?SaleRef=5054&LotRef=476

Just got the latest Coin News and see that this coin sold for £1350 in November - someone made a quick profit !

The fifth article, in March 2016's Coin News, contains the following reference: ".....the less scarce 1934 penny which is notable for being issued with the lustre 'mint toned' - not dark as with farthings between 1897 and 1918, but a dull reddish colour achieved using sodium thiosulphate ("hypo")." And that's all she wrote.....

This person really is the scum of the earth. A while ago I emailed him/her politely correcting an Ebay entry for a penny described wrongly as Freeman 76 (as I recall) and the reply was "Who do you think you are - Michael Freeman ?"

Wow - I hadn't heard about that. ELP were a bit far out for me but "I believe in Father Christmas" will always be my favourite Christmas song.

They only accept postal or room bids (possibly telephone bids too). Sadly their website is awful. Very slow and poorly organised. They could learn a lot from London Coins' site. I've had a look and they appear to be only showing one side of coins as you say.

Good job we gave English to someone else because it's being murdered over here..................

I've been sat at my PC all day upgrading from 8.1 to 10 and it's finally finished after about 5 hours ! If anyone has got some important tips on using W10, please let me know. I'm sure I'll be finding all sorts of problems in the coming days.