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Sword

Accomplished Collector
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Everything posted by Sword

  1. It seems pretty odd to me that the absolute pinnacle that is FDC can manage to span 6 grade numbers at the top of the table. So that's FDC, FDC and a bit, FDC and some, FDC with knobs on, ... What's more, their top 4 numbers all equate to Sheldon 70 - would the Americans accept their absolute pinnacle can be further subdivided by 4? And strictly, should only be applied to proofs. The highest grade for a non-proof is BU or UNC. Which would prompt me to ask whether CGS 88 is the highest achievable grade for a non-proof! I believe it is, but don't quote me on that Non-proof specimen coins can be significantly higher than that I think.
  2. Interesting question. I am collecting CGS graded coins and as far as I know they did not change their valuation by grade „across the board“. Generally speaking they monitor the prices achieved on the market and then adjust prices accordingly. On CGS forum meeting last year I have personally seen their impressive computer database were are the achieved prices added (as well as prices of raw coins). For example 1/2Crown 1836 valued by CGS in grade 80 at 1000,- pounds at that time sold in Lockdales sale 103 in May this year for £1580,- (double the estimate) and subsequently the CGS price on their website changed to 1600,-. In the same sale Ghotic Crown 1847 (in grade 78, valued at 3500,-) sold for £ 4200,- and is currently valued at 4000,- (interestingly in December sale this coin in grade 70 sold for £ 3900,-). I have noticed this as I have been bidding on this coins (unsuccessfully – needless to say). On the other hand I owe 6d 1879 No Die Number in grade 80 – the CGS valuation recently dropped from £ 300,- to 275,-. For me, however, still applies that value of my coins is what someone will be prepared to pay in the future. And I always buying the coins for the price I am happy with. CGS never (as far as I can tell) revise their valuations downward even though some of the figures are way over the top (i.e. more than two times out). For example they valued a grade 82 1900 LXIV crown at £900, and an example was sold in the august london coins auction at £380 hammer. A halfcrown was brought for £110 hammer from London coins and it got slabbed at grade 80 and has a CGS valuation of £350. There are many more examples I can give. I think the reason that some of the CGS prices have remained static for several years is that they were over the top in the first place and it will be many years before the market prices can catch up. I am sure there will be lot of examples on both sides of the spectrum and you may be right with "prices catching up" in some series. Their valuation by grade is great for insurance (valuation) purposes but otherwise it does not concern me at all. I always pay what I am happy to pay for particular coin. Some coins are sold even over their "over the top" prices some under their prices, it may depend how many buyers are interested in particular coin on the particular day. Raw shilling 1839 sold at their last auction at £200 hammer in spite of Spink valuation of £600. I do not think that because of this result we can say that Spink prices are "over the top". If the Crown 1900 is overpriced then it will remain on their website for sale for another 20 years until the price catch up (or until the price drops). It is not my problem, I am just not going to buy it for this price. FYI I'd like to confirm that CGS valuation of 6d 1879 dropped recently which is easily verifiable on their website. Thanks for the 1879 6d info. (They have dropped the price from £300 to £275 for grade 80 of a variety). Surely, even such modest drops are exceptionally rare? I do respect the grading of CGS and do use them. (The main reason for me slabbing some of my high grade coins is for protection and ease of viewing). I am also not saying that all CGS valuations are over the top. However, some of their valuations are obviously so and this does nothing for their credibility. London coins sells CGS slabs at CGS prices. If some CGS prices are double of what the raw coins can sell raw, then some might say that it is an attempt to push the theory that slabbing can greatly increase the value of a coin.
  3. They can't wash their hands quite so easily though as there are still hundreds (perhaps thousands) of CGS slabs out there labelled with grade qualifiers. I notice that they didn't offer to re-label all old slabs with the new style when they changed the nomenclature. More than 25000 CGS slabs (minus those that have been cracked out) with the grade qualifiers.
  4. Interesting question. I am collecting CGS graded coins and as far as I know they did not change their valuation by grade „across the board“. Generally speaking they monitor the prices achieved on the market and then adjust prices accordingly. On CGS forum meeting last year I have personally seen their impressive computer database were are the achieved prices added (as well as prices of raw coins). For example 1/2Crown 1836 valued by CGS in grade 80 at 1000,- pounds at that time sold in Lockdales sale 103 in May this year for £1580,- (double the estimate) and subsequently the CGS price on their website changed to 1600,-. In the same sale Ghotic Crown 1847 (in grade 78, valued at 3500,-) sold for £ 4200,- and is currently valued at 4000,- (interestingly in December sale this coin in grade 70 sold for £ 3900,-). I have noticed this as I have been bidding on this coins (unsuccessfully – needless to say). On the other hand I owe 6d 1879 No Die Number in grade 80 – the CGS valuation recently dropped from £ 300,- to 275,-. For me, however, still applies that value of my coins is what someone will be prepared to pay in the future. And I always buying the coins for the price I am happy with. CGS never (as far as I can tell) revise their valuations downward even though some of the figures are way over the top (i.e. more than two times out). For example they valued a grade 82 1900 LXIV crown at £900, and an example was sold in the august london coins auction at £380 hammer. A halfcrown was brought for £110 hammer from London coins and it got slabbed at grade 80 and has a CGS valuation of £350. There are many more examples I can give. I think the reason that some of the CGS prices have remained static for several years is that they were over the top in the first place and it will be many years before the market prices can catch up.
  5. The CGS guarentee is almost worthless. Their coin submission terms and conditions state: "Should any English Milled coin authenticated as genuine and encapsulated by CGS UK be proved subsequently to be fake and is returned to us by the original submitter, intact in the original holder with no evidence of tampering CGS UK will pay the submitter an agreed market value of a genuine example in a similar grade." There are a couple of obvious scenarios: 1) You buy the coin slabbed. The guarentee does not apply as you are not the original submitter. 2) You are the original submitter and you think the coin is fake. Try proving that conclusively without tampering with the slab. I agree with you Nick. However, I am sure that some people still believe that the warranty is attached to the slab and not to the original submitter. In the section regarding authenticity in "auction buyers guide" on the London coins website, it states that "Third party graded and encapsulated coins ("slabbed" coins) have authenticity guarantees from the grading company concerned." Hence, it would be a good idea to get official confirmation from CGS. If they confirm that it only apply to the original submitter, then it will be interesting to have their reasoning. Your second point is very interesting. For many cases, how can you ever prove that a coin is fake esp. if it is still in a slab. The TPGs and most auction houses for that matter have avoided discussing this. If PCGS or NGC refuse to reslab the coin on grounds of suspected authenticiy, would that be enough? There need to be a list of acceptable arbiters in case of disputes. Obviously, these issues apply to all TPGs and not just to CGS. (I suspect that since CGS slabs mainly English milled which they have expertise on, they must be very reliable on the authenticity front. I don't think anyone has reported a fake coin in a CGS slab yet ...)
  6. It is indeed a shame that Bill has not make an appearance on the forum for so long. I too enjoyed his input. From memory, he never got round to confirming whether the CGS warranty can be passed on to subsequent purchasers of the slabs. Also the CGS forum makes the claim that "CGS Guarantee the state of the coin as encapsulated so they know that the coins will not be damaged or toned in any way once encapsulated." and we did asked if he could get official confirmation for that. Strangely, hammered coins do not feature on the CGS population reports and so it is not possible to tell how many they have slabbed from their website. I think lightly dipped coins should have no problem getting accepted. E.g. there are plenty of blazing white proof coins of George V (with no signs of toning) in slabs.
  7. Merry Christmas to all!!
  8. Did you take photos (or a video clip) of the coin in the drinking vessel? Many people with be convinced by that. I assume you wouldn't store such a coin in a cabinet afterwards for fear of toning?
  9. My suggestions to beginners are to visit the museums and admire their coin collections. One can really be inspired by seeing the best. The Bank of England museum has sets of coins for different monarchs going back 300 years or so. Highlights include a 1935 gold crown. Once you are ready (i.e. knows how to handle and store coins properly and has some knowledge of grading), then go for coins with designs you like rather than just a specific denomination.
  10. Sword

    London Coins Today

    That's a very good and concise summary, which well defines the collecting mindset. I agree. Good summary. Coin collecting appeals to me as it combines my two main interests: history and art. Hence I don't collect decimal coins as the history element is absent. Owning something rare is certainly satisfying but I don't like old rarities in worn condidtion due to lack of artistic value. Another main reason for me collecting coins (now that I am in my late 30s) is that I used to collect in my teens. So it does reconnect me to a period of childhood.
  11. Good strategy Sword. Take time to learn what's average condition and what's not. Then when you spot something particularly pleasing .. go for it. Unless it's a Chas I shilling of course! I have a feeling that my first hammered will (eventually) be an Edward VI shilling or Chas I halfcrown. Hopefully, VF, full flan, nice portrait and well struck A C1 HC is a proper chunk of silver, something to hold, a lovely series of coins! The E6 shillings are certainly pretty, but ordinary by comparison!and C1 HC are also more affordable too...
  12. Good strategy Sword. Take time to learn what's average condition and what's not. Then when you spot something particularly pleasing .. go for it. Unless it's a Chas I shilling of course! I have a feeling that my first hammered will (eventually) be an Edward VI shilling or Chas I halfcrown. Hopefully, VF, full flan, nice portrait and well struck
  13. Very nice! I don't collect hammered (yet) because I can't afford to buy them in good enough conditions. I would much prefer to have a common coin in top (and therefore rare) condition rather than a very rare coin in poor condition any day.
  14. Seconded!! Thirded. I really don't think it's worth leaving over Dave. Plus it would be a great loss to the forum. Fourthed - please don't either of you leave! Fifthed. It not worth leaving over this. IMO, no discussion or argument will ever end if everyone want to have the last word. Let's move on once we had our say and let others make up their own minds regarding our opinions?
  15. I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a Subform on TPG (like unconfirmed varieties)? New comers to the forum often ask the same questions regarding TPGs and this topic has been debated almost to the death in the past. Might be it is useful for them to have all the previous discussions on TPGs grouped together?
  16. For me, I really like the leather box and I guess I would be prepared to pay £20 or £30 to buy one if I have a set in cardboard box. (Having said that, I do worry about the ribbons used to lift out the coins and the way they can tone the coins). I think sets sell for pretty much the same money regardless the type of box. In fact, I think one might even get more money by separating a set and selling the coins individually. I think my set is in the leather case, well they were before I put them into my cabinet. I'll have to go up into the loft and look it out, I have a bag with all the cases in somewhere. If mine were in the cardboard case I'd jump at an upgrade for £20-30. I think £50 would be closer. I don't think I would want to pay for a case upgrade unless I intend to keep the coins in the case. What's the point in having a prettier case if it is going to live in the loft?The cardboard cases are just as original and probably just as rare as the leather ones. On the subject of cases, I was surprised to learn that there are different varieties to the short 1902 proof set cases. Externally, the cases are the same but the coins inside the cases are arranged in different orders. Anyone know why they made different versions?
  17. For me, I really like the leather box and I guess I would be prepared to pay £20 or £30 to buy one if I have a set in cardboard box. (Having said that, I do worry about the ribbons used to lift out the coins and the way they can tone the coins). I think sets sell for pretty much the same money regardless the type of box. In fact, I think one might even get more money by separating a set and selling the coins individually.
  18. Thanks very much for getting the interesting data! I am surprised that this information is not given in any of the standard coin books and none of the authors bothered asking the mint. 14,382 is lower than what I thought it would be since they are relative cheap and easy to come by. I have previously thought that the 1927 proof sets were all issued in leather boxes along with a "back up" paper box. Nice to learn the truth. It is also really surprising that the demand for these sets were so low that they did not finish selling them until 1933!
  19. Sword

    £20 Silver Coin For £20

    No UK postage is payable if you buy 3. Otherwise p&p is £3 for 1 coin and £5 for two.
  20. Sounds like a good spot to tone cleaned / polished coins!
  21. Christ I'm awful with the acronyms :/ I don't know why I didn't get that just wondered if anyone had found they reacted differently/badly near the sea I used to live near the sea as a kid (about 100m or so away) and I don't remember any problem with my silver coins. I agree with Peter. Salts can disssolve in invisible water droplets in air and contribute to corrosion of objects near the sea. However, unless you feel inclined to enjoy your collection on the beach or outside your beach hut, I don't think there is much risk.
  22. HAPPY BIRTHDAY Paulus!!! Hope you have a fantastic day.
  23. A reproduction that looks like the real thing is more interesting than a "fantasy" coin. There are plenty of fantasy coins for Edward VIII but I haven't seen a decent copy of a real coin. Wonder why.
  24. They can simply reject it on the ground that it has been previously cleaned! I am not certain it makes much difference if it get slabbed by cgs or not as LC states that they will give a full refund if any of their auction items turns out to be a fake. If one wants to make a point, then send it to PCGS aftwards to see if it get certified as "genuine".
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