Generic Lad

Unless the coin is in a well known holder or you are buying it for less than scrap value. I managed to pick up a Britannia for less than melt because the guy took a low-resolution pic of it in the Littleton coin holder. Most people didn't know what it was so they didn't bid, however I had bought a few Britannias in those holders from my coin dealer (and not Littleton! Their prices are absurd!) and so I knew what to expect. But yes, for coppers, if they don't photograph both sides of the coin, there is usually a reason why!

Well, the 2 coins with Britannia and the lion are farthings (1823, 1822 by the looks of it), honestly beautiful coins, some of my favorites and seem to be in decent condition. The God Save the King is some sort of token, don't know anything more about it other than it isn't a Royal Mint coin. The one with the shield appears to be a half-crown dated 1820. The smaller bronze looks to be a fractional farthing, I think it is a half farthing, but I suppose it might be a third farthing? The other coin is called a "coronation crown" in the description but I don't really know anything about it, other than it can't be a crown in the traditional sense, its much too small! I don't have my Spinks book up here with me at this time, so I can't really help you with the value. But for only 31 pounds, I'd say you made out alright.

To be honest, I think that a world currency in this time is quite unlikely. If there is one thing that this Euro crisis should tell us it is to not trust your neighbors and that the only real stability is stability that you can control. Rather than looking at individual bonds and individual nations to see their risk factors, banks and funds managers blindly viewed all EU bonds as being top notch. Whoops. If anything, the stronger EU communities (Germany/France) should withdraw from the Euro because they are being dragged down from the broke nations (Ireland, Italy, Greece). The broke nations should withdraw from the Euro because they need the hyperinflationary option to get rid of the debt that they manage to rack up so easily (look at the 2 Drachmas that ended up in hyperinflation and the final drachma that ended up being also hit by rampant inflation). We used to have a world currency: gold and silver and honestly a "hard" money solution is the only way we can really have any sort of easily exchangeable currency for an extended period of time and it is unlikely that we will see a return to real money anytime soon (although there is a growing movement in the US towards a hard money standard). So until then, I don't think we really have to worry about a world bank because it is simple game theory: If you go along with the cartel and everyone else does, everyone wins. If you break the agreement, and everyone keeps it, you come out ahead. If you break it and everyone else breaks it, everyone comes out equal. If you keep it and someone else breaks it, you come out behind. Because of this, there is no incentive to keep the currency going, there is much more of an incentive to cheat and so any type of paper/fiat currency in a world bank would end up failing given enough time. Even a hard money world currency might fail, after all, a nation can decide to debase what it considers to be a "dollar", "yen" or "pound" and thus mess up contracts set in a set currency, or mints inferior coins or cheats on banknotes. Any world bank or world currency based on voluntary agreements between nations wouldn't last for long, there is nothing to keep it together.

Great condition! And a rotated die too!

PayPal is a pain, if eBay wasn't the easiest way to get my coins for my collection I certainly wouldn't use it. I saw a similar story online about a blog (Regretsy if anyone is curious, but beware strong language is everywhere) mistakenly used the "Donate" button to collect donations for a donations fund to provide toys for underprivileged kids. Instead PayPal requested the owner of the site to send lots of paperwork (while she was in Finland) from her (US based) banks because she is set up as a for profit company, only to e-mail her back and forced her to issue refunds to the thousands of people who had donated all the while they kept the fees! So now when she sets it back up for people to donate again (though she has to use the "Purchase It" button) PayPal gets yet /another/ cut of the fees.

Yes, but I suppose it is a good deal for a lot of small/broke nations. Free money for having to do nothing (most of those coins are minted via private mints) but sign a paper. What I think is worse though are the circulating legal tender "commemorative" coins, at least the non circulating ones will only annoy you on an eBay listing.

The Token Money of the Bank of England: http://books.google.com/books?id=FIdAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA3&dq=The+Token+Money+of+the+Bank+of+England&hl=en&ei=Sj7cToP0LeWlsQKokb3pDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false The Copper, Tin and Bronze Coinage Patterns of England: http://books.google.com/books?id=EmwCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=English+Copper+tin+and+bronze+coins&hl=en&ei=dT_cTqrdKYPisQK66NjwDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CHMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Generic Lad, there is already a "useful links" thread in the "free for all" thread where members post their useful links all in the one place Oh, yeah I guess there is one... I'll pretend I didn't make this one and just post it over there. Thanks!

I was looking at some of the prior posts and it seems like there are a lot of older books in the public domain about British numismatics, so I was thinking about starting a thread where we can post links to places where you can read it online for free since acquiring a physical copy of some older books in decent condition is near impossible unless you want to pay a fortune. For example: The Token Money of the Bank of England can be found in its entirety at Google Books here: http://books.google.com/books?id=FIdAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA3&dq=The+Token+Money+of+the+Bank+of+England&hl=en&ei=Sj7cToP0LeWlsQKokb3pDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false The copper, tin and bronze coinage and patterns for coins of England can be found via Google Books here: http://books.google.com/books?id=EmwCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR15&dq=English+Copper+tin+and+bronze+coins&hl=en&ei=dT_cTqrdKYPisQK66NjwDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CHMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Congrats! Can't say that I really ever considered a "big name" university myself, but I'm at a small state university and enjoying it. If I decide to go for anything beyond my bachelors though, I'd like to go to a school in the UK, even if it is just for half a year just to see what it is like. Really a bit too expensive to study over there for a semester as an undergraduate though, I might as well just go on a 2 week vacation and enjoy it all rather than worrying about classes! Tuition isn't that bad but living expenses + plane tickets + the bad dollar to pound ratio would kill my wallet at the moment.

Though I'm not British, I've always been of the opinion that artifacts (or anything else) buried underground are the property of the landowner who should then be able to enter into agreements with detectorists on who gets to keep what. I think it is good for museums to record information that detectorists find, but it should be on a voluntary basis and museums should purchase (or get donated) their items on the open market, allowing for bids from both private collectors and public museums. Under this system, it is entirely likely that hoards would get reported in great detail (after all, a good hoard story makes the coins worth quite a bit more for the dectectorist and the landowner) and then it would go to whoever valued the hoard the most. But if someone doesn't want to report a find, so be it, after all, they are only harming themselves in the fact that it would sell for much higher had it had a well-known backstory.

Yep, fakes seem to be everywhere. Its especially sad of all the Chinese fakes of Chinese coins because I could see a thriving collectors market in China in a few years. The problem is, the Chinese have managed to counterfeit their entire culture to the point where no one knows if something is a fake or not.

Fiat money is never a good idea, real money needs to be a physical commodity with intrinsic value to really work. The problem with the notion of the Euro and any other currency/trade union out there is those that are stronger end up having to pay for the mistakes that the weaker economies have. Had the Greeks kept their Drachma, their debt crisis would be lessened in every place that wasn't Greece. But since Greece became part of the EU, the entire continent of Europe takes a hit when Greece fails. The bigger problem is that rather than evaluate each country's bonds, most banks are allowed to count any Eurozone bond (along with US/UK bonds) as a cash equivalent. For example, if a bank is required to have $100 for every $500 it loans out, it might really only have $25 in cash and the other $75 in European bonds with Greek, Irish and Portuguese mixed in. Since having a lot of cash doesn't do the bank much good since they don't earn interest on it, there is a greater tendency for them to go with higher-yield bonds. After all, if you had a bunch of money to invest would you rather sit on it with 0% interest rate and call it cash, or put it up for bonds for a 3% interest rate and call it cash? If we want to have a stable economy, we need a sane banking system and hard currency. Sure, we might not see the explosive growth that you see with worthless money, but we wouldn't have much of a crash either. Its a sad day when saving money is taking a guaranteed loss due to inflation here in the US, the stock market is too much of a mess and property is in too much of a mess. Honestly everyone in the US (and the west in general) needs to have physical assets, not because they are the best performing and not because you are going to get rich buying gold and silver, but because of necessity.

Yes, during the early years of US coinage there were no real "rarities" for collectors, after all, the collector base was fairly small and confined to fairly wealthy individuals. Even today it is only through the fact that coin collecting is a major hobby in the US that certain coins have become scarce. One only needs to compare the prices for certain "rare" US coins and their mintages to British coins to see that a lot of those coins that US collectors are willing to pay $$$$ for would be considered rather common and have no major premium over other years in British numismatics. The trend will only continue that US collectors will flock to British coin collecting because there are some coins that are seriously undervalued relative to their mintages (some pattern and most Maundy coins come to mind) and what sells for £150 might sell for well over $1,000 if it was a similar coin in the US. Because of this, we will only see more US investors and collectors getting into serious British numismatics. Location is no longer much of a barrier, even though I'm in the US and don't live anywhere near a good coin dealer in British coins, I can still collect and (if I had the spare cash) bid on some of the major coin auctions in the UK, and buy coins from dealers not just based in the US, but in the UK and EU too. What 20 years ago may have been nearly impossible because of the limitations of print and the mail service, now is routine.

Not surprising considering they sell well circulated veil head pennies for £2.40.

Hey, I think I recognize you from TreasureNet! Welcome to this forum!

I have a question on Lot 1515, what exactly is that coin? I've seen several coins that look similar to it on eBay advertised as "Retro Crowns" and are obviously reproductions. So is this a real Royal Mint product? Is it a pattern coin? Or did a dealer just get stuck with a crap coin and decided that some fool and his money would be parted at auction?

German was never the most succinct of languages but when you sling in all the marketing bullsh*t it becomes a cure for insomnia. Nice coin but about 3x overpriced. Typical US-based dealer, if its prior to the 1800s and still in relatively readable shape it must be uncirculated! And the coin is clearly circulated too! It isn't like some coins where you are scratching your head to find where the wear is! And the price too! (And to be honest, not sure if I really like the toning, looks too much like lichens/moss on stone for my tastes.) The rest of his coins are similarly overgraded, he considers a Mercury dime with most of the date, motto, and Liberty worn off to be XF! Not to mention that even in XF condition the coin is still overpriced!

For the slabs, I have a few problems not in the slabs themselves (well, not the NGC/PCGs ones because they are well designed so you can see the edge, some self-slabbers will put it in a slab where you can't see the edge at all...) but in the mentality of the slab. Rather than mintage rarities, collecting now has far too many "condition rarities" where a single point on a scale makes a huge price difference when it has no difference in eye appeal. Too many US collectors have focused on the plastic holding the coin than the coin itself. As for the internet, I think that the more (free!) information on the internet there is, the better it is for the hobby. Without the internet, I would not be collecting British coins, because, quite frankly, there are no good coin shops near me that sell world coins. Sure, now and then I can pick up a Silver Britannia for about bullion, get a silver sixpence here and a Victoria penny there, but they are sold as curiosities, not as serious collector items. With the internet, I can go to eBay or a myriad of dealer's websites and find coins that I'd never be able to find through my local dealers. Similarly, it is nice to have the convenience that the internet has in researching coins and collaboration.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/very-early-english-milled-coin-1600-era-/220875681938?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item336d377092 Perhaps I'm totally wrong but this does not look 17th century in the least, it looks like a miniature of a George V Florin

To be honest, my top coins are all fairly common (although pricy!) 1. Gothic crown. I don't think there is a coin minted that looks as beautiful as the gothic crown. Unfortunately, it seems to be expensive despite the fact its a non-rarity. Either way, I'd like to have one even if I have to pay a bit too much for it, though its way out of my price range. 2. Victoria Una and the Lion 5 pounds. Its big, beautiful, old and its gold. What isn't there to love about it? 3. Some siege money produced during the civil war. While fairly unattractive, I have to say the history behind them is fascinating. 4. An excellent example of an Edward the Confessor, Cnut, or Aethelred penny. 5. The petition crown. Ok, its not really common, but its well known! Honestly it is a true masterpiece, if only Simon was alive today to correct the abomination of modern coinage! (Seriously, its a worldwide problem now, is there any country that still strikes beautiful coins in decent relief for circulation?)

Interesting comparisons. Just out of interest, how much would a (very common?) 1885-O Morgan dollar fetch in absolute brilliant sparkling UNC condition? The fields are virtually mirror-like, and the raised design has a frosted appearance. Probably not very much? I'd say around $60-115, or perhaps more. Though Morgans are perhaps the biggest example of grading influencing prices. A coin rated as MS-62 might fetch $75, if the coin was rated MS-64 it might fetch $100, and if it is rated MS-66 it might fetch $300 or so despite there being small differences in eye appeal from MS-64 to MS-66.

Oh, I have little doubt that British coin prices will go up with enough American influence. Consider the 1900 Crown, it has a mintage of 353,356 I believe, it also sells for around bullion-$200 depending on condition. Compare that to the 1895-S Morgan Dollar, it has a higher mintage of 400,000 yet that coin sells for hundreds of dollars in almost good condition and thousands of dollars in mint state. Keep in mind too that the Morgan series wasn't a very popular series with the general public and that millions of coins are found today in uncirculated conditions. Similarly, look at the 1888 crown, it has a mintage of only 131.899 but yet can easily be found in mint state for ~$400 and be found for little more than bullion prices. Compare that to the 1885-CC which has almost double the mintage (238,000) and goes for over $400 even in the lower grades. Look at how cheap Maundy sets are when compared to their relative mintages too. If Americans start looking at British coins seriously, they will find that there are a lot of (what Americans think) are low mintage coins selling for really cheap when compared to the equivalent American coins. Also, if this happens I'd expect the low-grade "key dates" of series to dramatically increase in value, just look at key-date American coins, you will have some worn slick with nothing more visible than the date and mintmark selling for several hundred dollars. Keep in mind that the mintage of the famous 1916-D Mercury dime (selling for hundreds even on an incredibly worn coin) is 264,000, well above the mintages of several British coins that sell for a fraction of that in better grades...

I agree about the US market influencing the UK coin market. The US coin market is increasingly turning to grading and condition rarities rather than key dates and attractive coins. For example, there are people who buy mint sets/proof sets in bulk in hopes that they will come back with a high grade to sell on eBay, despite the fact that MS65/66 specimens are easily found for a fraction of the price. No one cares anymore about the grade of the coin so long as it is the "finest known" example of its kind certified by NGC/PCGS. Not even that, there are even services that grade grading services such as CAC. Due to the rise in precious metal prices, coins that normally wouldn't be worth the trouble to counterfeit (such as common-date Morgan dollars which are only worth bullion value even in high grades) have been found within the market. And while some are very crude, others would fool even a moderately experienced dealer or buyer. Because of this, I can see a lot of collectors moving over to the UK and other European coin markets because they don't have the obsession with grading as much as US coins do and a coin is graded on its merits rather than whatever "plastic coffin" it is in. Also, a lot of the British coins when compared to their mintages and how old they are, are very reasonably priced. For example, take the Victorian Maundy Sets, low-ish mintages and quality close to proof. You can buy a decent set for ~$250, perhaps a bit more if you demand higher quality and the case, a bit lower if you get a good deal. On the other hand, you aren't going to be able to find a set of 4 US coins in high grade with that old of age for that much. Even the modern Maundy sets seem to be undervalued in regards to their mintages, as are some of the Victorian issues when compared to their corresponding US coins. The US coin market isn't about coins anymore, its about plastic coffins and green stickers. The only area that really involves coins as a whole are searching through dealer's "junk bins" in hopes of scoring a rarity. The rest is just plastic.

Keep in mind that most modern trick coins are not joined at the rim, but on one of the faces, where one coin is shaved to fit into the reverse of another coin.