Menger
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Posts posted by Menger
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10 minutes ago, Rob said:
You can add religion to that in many cases
Yup. Ideology is the modern religion.
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For sure in the West the war is portrayed as ideological. For many of its supporters I dare it is. I suspect at a geopolitical level it also has a more cynical imperial impetus (there was little ideological handwringing by western powers when the democratically elected Yanukovych was illegally deposed). And in the Ukraine it is a nationalist defensive war - for national sovereignty. I support that. Russia is a historical empire and quite possibly it initiated an imperial war - but again it could be nationalist. I distrust imperialism and ideology equally - neither is conducive to peace.
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Hopefully peace soon. The one thing as bad as a war of imperialism is a war of ideology.
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2 hours ago, Sword said:
One can born with scars unfortunately. I remember some salesman once said on TV that inclusions in a diamond are a good thing as they give the stone unique character. Who was he kidding?
Back to the 1902 matte proof. In my view, the minting process was over when the coins have been struck. The wiping wasn't part of the minting process and was mishandling by workers after minting. The fact that many (but not all) 1902 matt proof have wipe marks do help to make them more tolerable to collectors but you won't find many people thinking the marks are a positive feature. If you buy a modern commemorative coin from the Royal Mint today and it comes with a fingerprint, you would immediately return it due to mishandling in the mint.
Ah. I see. I thought wipe marks on a matte proof were just the same as die polish marks on a normal proof. So less a beauty spot or freckle and more a soiled nappy.
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1 hour ago, Sword said:
A facial birthmark or scar can be argued to add "character". I would still rather not have them...
I think freckles or the odd beauty spot can be attractive. A scar would be post-mint though surely?
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I must say - I cheated and looked it up first. I did not see anything wrong with the grade though. What am I missing? Should it be a notch higher? 😊
Personally I see mint wipe marks as a positive - they add character. I don’t personally believe that manufacturing marks should reduce the grade. The green would be a problem if PVC or something but surely not …?
All that said - I do not care much for technical grades. I am more of a vibe man. -
30 minutes ago, ozjohn said:
My priorities would be wear, damage and strike. Here wear and strike can be difficult to determine He The other thing I look at the edge milling and rim as they can be the first to show any wear due to circulation
I think you nailed it with “my priorities would be ….” This brings to the fore how subjective grading must be. This does not, of course, mean that there is no objectivity. But necessarily different people will give different weighting to different attributes.
The Sheldon scale does have more categories (i.e., numbers, now further calibrated into + and *; and with several third party services adding stickers to add yet more nuance). But I am skeptical that increased nominal granularity corresponds to real distinctions in actual coins that can be reliably and consistently replicated across different issues, years and graders.
Grading provides a useful heuristic but I think the claims of objectivity are as much marketing as science.
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Our left-side brains are seduced by quantitative scales (such as Sheldon - the American system), as if they somehow represent greater certainty than qualitative grades (such as extra fine etc of the British system). This is a pure mirage, but a good one and it is what the PCGS and NGC make money from. A fine business model!
In reality, all grading is qualitative - and all qualitative judgments are (to a degree) subjective and error prone.
In my view, TPG provides a useful rule of thumb to purchase at a distance; no better nor worse than qualitative grading provided by a reputable auction house. Neither is a substitute for the expanded qualitative descriptions and exchange of observations as per the thread above. None of this is a substitute for the subjective feel of a coin in hand - preferably broken out of it’s slab with a hammer and victory dance.
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1 hour ago, blakeyboy said:
I suspect you are over-thinking it.
Yes quite possible. Or perhaps you were under-thinking it?
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6 hours ago, blakeyboy said:
should have run with the one about kid who turns up out of the blue with demands of a football team because he's the only kid in the street with a decent ball.
How's that?
Dunno. How about the kid who turns up quite ballsy and offers to let play with his decent ball; several on the team refuse to play (not allowed to be ballsy nor show off decent ball - certainly don’t suggest potential improvements to the game); others keep their decent balls and ideas hidden away (possibly for fear of the same treatment).
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6 hours ago, blakeyboy said:
We were all very interested and excited and couldn't wait to see what this new kid was offering. All we got was a promise of some pictures, but no plane to admire in the clubhouse, no chance to see it fly, no, we were told it wouldn't be seen again.
Did the other kids bring their planes to the clubhouse, or keep them locked up safely at home? If they kept them at home, when could we expect to see them next? Did they freely post generous photos of their collections? Did they dare make up their own model numbers to fill gaps or did they dutifully follow established orthodoxy and ignore the gaps? Did they vape?
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11 hours ago, VickySilver said:
Viva la Difference!
Do you mean “Vive la difference!”?
I agree. I think the forum can only benefit from the odd colourful character. We have had a few now. Diversity is our strength!
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3 hours ago, blakeyboy said:
Those in the Club who liked the new member were described as 'intelligent and rational',
I think this is out of sequence: I only liked him personally after he said that. 🥰 Beforehand, I was seeking to objectively explore the epistemology of dynamic systems of distributed knowledge and the potential contribution he makes to such a system. Also the concept of trade offs - as Thomas Aquinas put it - every (coin) acquisition is a renunciation. Perhaps you need to introduce an additional character to your fable - that of the annoying and snooty school swat. 🤣
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1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:
To give just one example : Satin numbers (John Jerraims?) which are assigned by one expert to his post-Freeman observations of new varieties. However, we then have to have Peck, Freeman, Gouby, Satin, numbers. It does make life confusing but what other way is there?
One way is we encourage people to tinker around the edges by posting their own observations / assigned numbers for examples in their own collections on their own websites. What works sticks and what does not is discarded - by the collecting community as a whole. Again, this is how all bottom up systems work - from language to common law to customs to “best practice”. In parallel there can also be attempts at top down / expert authority - to the extent it is useful it will be respected (Gouby, Freeman, Satin …) and to the extent it is not it will be ignored.
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14 minutes ago, Denarius said:
Not by allowing all and sundry to invent arbitrary changes/inventions in a number of scattered and unrelated sources.
That is how many bottom up systems work (common law, language, customs) so it may help fill the gap. What works sticks and what does not falls by the wayside …
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18 minutes ago, Denarius said:
Freeman numbers, however, refer back to a respected and universal source of documented information and are clearly not open to change or invention.
Then how can the system hope to improve?
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33 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:
Only immense academic effort is rewarded by the assignment of such rights and privileges,not spending cash....
Surely we have a right attribute whatever rarity or symbol we want to our own collection and on our own websites and wot not. Then it is up to anyone else to attribute such credibility to our determinations as they choose.
Rarity seems such a subjective thing - a finger in the air based on personal experience much of the time.
In my area of thruppences several the ESC rarity ratings seem a bit wonky - so I ignore them.
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5 hours ago, blakeyboy said:
you state the the 1954 penny will hopefully not be sold or seen again....
I bet he has a peep at it once in a while … who could resist?
Anyhows - I see it as a great service that he shares the photos, even if he hopes not to sell. With the advances in technology we are seeing, I think the more we all share quality images of private collections the better. Let’s go!! 👍👍
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4 hours ago, VickySilver said:
The bigger issue is the domination of the modern market for rare coins by those blessed with generous resources and the squeezing out of those with more modest means.
Isn’t that the same (to a degree) for all markets though - from coins to houses to art to (dare I say) women. So perhaps more important than market domination is to ensure that we share pictures on the internet of what we have got (within reason) and for everyone else to enjoy. 😊
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13 minutes ago, jelida said:
Presumptuous? Unless Kevin had the resources, how could he have afforded such wonderful coins? The Workman spend alone is greater than my pension pot! Yet I still obsessively splash out when I can……
Jerry
Presumptuous in that you cannot know if he traded his pension pot to obtain it. Or perhaps he did not have the resources initially, but worked to obtain them precisely to be able to afford the collection. Or perhaps you make a good guess - but even then I still think a full stop would be better than a comma. The comma implies an explanatory link between the two subclauses that may overreach: there are plenty of people with resources who lack such a collection.
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I am intrigued: is this the best circulation penny collection in the world? Does anyone know of a better collection?
(I like the concept. I aspire to have the best collection of silver threepences, Britannia groats and other tiny British (empire) silver one day … 🇬🇧)
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11 hours ago, jelida said:
I am also pleased to see that so many important coins are staying in the country
Does that matter for private coin collections in this age of internet auctions? My humble collection resides with me overseas - but I don’t see the practical difference between that and it being in a bank vault (or under a bed) in the UK. In either case, private collections can be shared on the internet - or squirreled away. What we do benefit from is a liquid market that links supply and demand across the globe. 🇬🇧
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11 hours ago, jelida said:
You have a wonderful collection, I wish that I had your resources.
Bit presumptuous? We cannot know what trade-offs a collector might make over a lifetime. Or perhaps a collector is motivated to obtain resources in order to perfect a collection. I also wish I had more resources mind. Perhaps a full stop at least is needed between the two sub-clauses. 🤣
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Russians
in Nothing whatsoever to do with coins area!
Posted · Edited by Menger
Indeed it does. Ideology has phantom friends and enemies, heros and villains, good and evil. Like religion, it satisfies the human need for meaning in life by providing identity and status in an eternal battle between the two. The Treaty of Westphalia put an end to the 30 Years War and with it the totalizing battles of religion - but the risk of ideological war (“liberty, equality, fraternity”) prevails. Like imperialism and like religion (but unlike the notion of the nation state that grew out of Westphalia), ideology (progressive or regressive) has little constraint in geography or reality; just phantoms and eternal battles. The opiate of the masses. Easily dispensed over the internet. Beware.