1847 Gothic Crown

[John Samuel 1]

Hi - this 1847 Gothic Crown has been in my family for a number of generations. As can be seen, at some stage the coin had an attachment soldered to it (my guess is that an attempt was made to make the coin into a brooch, and that this attachment was a hinge.) My question is, should I attempt to have the attachment removed, or would this attempt damage the coin further?

I have asked this question on another coin forum, and am grateful to the advice I have received from there (which advice was that I SHOULD get the attachment removed, and that the best place to go would be a High Street jeweller. Such arcane terms as 'fine-tip soldering iron' and 'solder sucker' have been mentioned to me.)

I would be very grateful for any further advice. (The coin is not for sale.) Thanks.

[azda 973]

Having it removed or not it has still devalued the coin no end, from say £1800+ to about £800 if you're lucky. It's a shame as it looked a really decent coin. If it's not for sale i'd leave as is so not to damage it further

Edited August 30, 2015 by azda

[John Samuel 1]

Thanks very much for the advice.

[hazelman 44]

My recommendation from experience is to have this removed by a good jeweller. If done carefully there should be minimal damage.

[DaveG38 385]

Hi - this 1847 Gothic Crown has been in my family for a number of generations. As can be seen, at some stage the coin had an attachment soldered to it (my guess is that an attempt was made to make the coin into a brooch, and that this attachment was a hinge.) My question is, should I attempt to have the attachment removed, or would this attempt damage the coin further?

I have asked this question on another coin forum, and am grateful to the advice I have received from there (which advice was that I SHOULD get the attachment removed, and that the best place to go would be a High Street jeweller. Such arcane terms as 'fine-tip soldering iron' and 'solder sucker' have been mentioned to me.)

I would be very grateful for any further advice. (The coin is not for sale.) Thanks.

If you just want the hinge removing then by all means go to a local jobbing jewellers. However, if you want the coin restored to very close to its former glory, and that will improve its value from what it is now to somewhere much nearer to an undamaged example, then you could do worse that approach the guy who runs this website. His results, as evidenced by the examples he shows are excellent, and although the coin will always be 'damaged', the end result will be so good as to make the damage barely noticeable. The only downsides are cost (he's not cheap) and timescale for the work (his lead times can be many months).

http://www.crs-stockton.com/index2.html

[John Samuel 1]

My thanks to hazelman and DaveG38. The (admittedly rather poor) photographs of this coin posted by me do not properly show the other damage, presumably caused at the same time as the attachment: directly opposite the attachment on the rim is some discolouration and minor chips.

[azda 973]

My recommendation from experience is to have this removed by a good jeweller. If done carefully there should be minimal damage.

The damage has already been Done with the soldering, that won't ever go away. The lettering will be obliterated underneath the mount, it May have been a different story had it been on the rim

Edited August 30, 2015 by azda

[Coinery 926]

Don't go anywhere near a jeweller! If you can't find or afford a specialist coin man to do the job, leave it where it is!

There are some things a jeweller doesn't understand, and that is the effect of heat on a metal that 'can't' subsiquently be cleaned in a jeweller's 'pickling' solution afterwards! Trust me it'll be a big mess, or a a bright shiny coin, whichever you prefer?

[John Samuel 1]

Thanks. It did occur to me that treatment by a jeweller might ruin that beautiful oxidation (if that's the right word. Patination?)

[azda 973]

Thanks. It did occur to me that treatment by a jeweller might ruin that beautiful oxidation (if that's the right word. Patination?)

Tone/Patina, yes he probabaly would. As i said above, If it's not for selling then i would personally leave it be for a while and do some properes Research first before deciding on getting it removed, it could bugger a nice coin, although it's really Sad too see it like it is, without the mount it would have been a cracking coin.

Edited August 30, 2015 by azda

[Paulus 1,942]

Despite some advice to the contrary, I would totally agree with Azda and Coinery, leave it as it is, or you will be spending money making it even worse

[Coinery 926]

You'd also of course be looking at getting the 8 o'clock obverse fixed at the same time, so I'm guessing it genuinely is an expensive coin-man job?

Thinking about it, there'd unlikely be any lustre left following the initial process of soldering, and certainly following the subsiquent removal of the reciprocal clasp. You're probably best off just enjoying it as it is, and saving your money to spend on a nice gothic florin to go with it!

[John Samuel 1]

Thanks again to all who gave advice. We seem to be reaching something of a consensus - I shall leave the coin as it is.

[VickySilver 775]

One last thought - what about the fellow Stockwell/Stockton in Kentucky USA. His site has a similar scenario half dollar by recollection with before and after shots...

[John Samuel 1]

One last thought - what about the fellow Stockwell/Stockton in Kentucky USA. His site has a similar scenario half dollar by recollection with before and after shots...

Thanks. DaveG38 kindly gave the link in post #5. The before/after pics are remarkable, but: is a restored coin still the original coin, or is it something else? If you know what I mean...

[Coinery 926]

One last thought - what about the fellow Stockwell/Stockton in Kentucky USA. His site has a similar scenario half dollar by recollection with before and after shots...

Thanks. DaveG38 kindly gave the link in post #5. The before/after pics are remarkable, but: is a restored coin still the original coin, or is it something else? If you know what I mean...

I personally think it's something else, much like a classic car!

You can have an immaculate 1960's E-Type, which is 50% new panels and half an engine from a different car (albeit it old stock/re manufactured etc), or a WWII Spitfire, which has been built around 5% of its surviving structure and the ID Plate but, bottom line is, neither are quite the real deal, but an awful lot better than not having one!

Terrible grammar I know!

Edit: and sentence structure!

Edited September 9, 2015 by Coinery

[azda 973]

I agree with Stewies sentiments exactly, poor grammar and sentence structure

[Paulus 1,942]

For me it's like any significantly restored antique, down to the individual how they feel about it, which might be partly down to the extent of the restoration

[Coinery 926]

I agree with Stewies sentiments exactly, poor grammar and sentence structure

Having a bit of a night of it all round!

[Garrett 76]

As a coin collector I would be disappointed.

However, if after researching the family tree and trawling through old photos I found a 120 year old photo of my GG Grandmother wearing it I would feel a bit better.

Cheers

Garrett.

[John Samuel 1]

Thanks for these interesting thoughts. Coinery's analogy/comparison doesn't really work for me: the point of a car/plane is that it can be driven/flown. So it would make sense to restore the car/plane so that these things could be done. But a coin doesn't do anything: it may be valued for its history - that it has been used as money over many years/decades/centuries. Or, conceivably, valued because it had been admired aesthetically by a great-grandmother, converted into a brooch and treasured.

In the first instance (valued for its history) I agree with Paulus - much depends on the extent of the restoration.

And Garrett makes a very good point. All I know about this Crown is that my grandmother gave it to my father. I suspect that my grandmother was given it by her mother, who lived from 1871 to 1962. All four of us in this paragraph lived in the same house and if I could find a photograph of the coin being worn as a brooch I would be delighted. But I haven't, yet.

[Coinery 926]

Thanks for these interesting thoughts. Coinery's analogy/comparison doesn't really work for me: the point of a car/plane is that it can be driven/flown. So it would make sense to restore the car/plane so that these things could be done. But a coin doesn't do anything: it may be valued for its history - that it has been used as money over many years/decades/centuries. Or, conceivably, valued because it had been admired aesthetically by a great-grandmother, converted into a brooch and treasured.

In the first instance (valued for its history) I agree with Paulus - much depends on the extent of the restoration.

And Garrett makes a very good point. All I know about this Crown is that my grandmother gave it to my father. I suspect that my grandmother was given it by her mother, who lived from 1871 to 1962. All four of us in this paragraph lived in the same house and if I could find a photograph of the coin being worn as a brooch I would be delighted. But I haven't, yet.

"but: is a restored coin still the original coin, or is it something else?"

The fact that you have some doubts yourself as to whether restoration somehow taints the integrity of an item, is an answer in itself! Do YOU think it's still the original coin? It's still the original coin as it is, but with solder marks on it! If you think about it, you are essentially asking 'are you able to turn a blind eye to the fact that some of the legend, and a bit of the rim, and also the patina of the coin are artificial' following restoration?

The analogy I made was to highlight the point about when an item/object loses its integrity/desirability through restoration?

[VickySilver 775]

IMO, not as valuable obviously as an original coin, but better than the holed artifact.

[Gary1000 41]

I think where restored items fall down it's when they are restored to better than they were when new. Like giving an old tractor a paint job like a modern car, it never came out of the factory looking like that. It's all down to how sympathetic the restoration has been.

[John Samuel 1]

Thanks Coinery I think your remarks have consolidated my thinking. I would value the original coin with solder marks on it higher than a coin artificial after restoration. This holds, for me, no matter how sympathetic the restoration (thanks for your thoughts Gary1000).

Today I shall post the third of three coins which came my way a couple of years ago. In this case, a 1842 Victoria groat, also damaged (but less so) and, it seems to me, polished.