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Mr T

the pennies of 1922 and 1926

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So, following on from http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9914-4054a-1926-penny-of-highest-rarity/, I've been trying to get my head around the 1922 and 1926 pennies seeing as both Freeman's and Gouby's works have been outdated by somewhat recent discoveries. This what I've come up with from my reading here:

1922 Gouby C+b/Freeman 3+B - the regular circulating 1922

1922 Gouby C+c/Freeman 3+C - the so-called 1927 reverse which is actually different from the 1927 obverse

1922 Gouby C+c/Freeman 3+C proof - supposedly struck for 1924 proof sets for the South African government (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94427) though I haven't seen any reference to these coins or their purpose/origins in the literature.

1922 Gouby D+c/Freeman 4+C - one of Freeman's updates (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=93996) - anyone know where this was published? A picture was posted at a few days ago too and it appears to have circulated; seems to be the same coin posted at

1926 Gouby C+b/Freeman 3+B - regular circulating 1926

1926 Gouby D+b/Freeman 4+B - regular circulating 1926

1926 Gouby D+d/Freeman 4+C - another one of Freeman's updates (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=93996), about to be auctioned ()

1926 Gouby D+?/Freeman 4+? - http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94301 - anyone know when the last sale of this was, or if there are any books/articles that make mention of it?

Seems like the F192C mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94328 doesn't exist, or did I get lost in that thread?

Also, considering the case of the 1922 with the trident dot, Freeman says that the bronze alloy was set in 1923. Is it possible the trident dot coins are tests of the new alloy? Does anyone have one to do a ring test with, or are the different bronze alloys all similar enough that they have the same ring?

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Thanks Mr T.

Its been doing my head in for the last week or so and gave up reading about them,although this thread has started me off again.

Mr schindler has a 1922 with dot although not sure on the different alloy theory .

Pete

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who was getting confused by it all! Anyway, hopefully Bernie might chip in as he seems know a bit of what's going on.

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Mr T has mentioned all of the varieties that I know of, The F192C that was questioned in the final paragraph is the 1922 4+C. The links appear to be all there to view the different varieties.

I can only guess what was going on. Probably experimenting with different die designs to get rid of ghosting. It is most likely that no penny dies were produced in 1923 or 1924 because of the two 1922 proof pennies that were issued in the 1924 proof sets that were given to South Africa. The two rare examples found of 1926 pennies, obverse 4 with pattern reverse and 4+experimental C were probably struck in 1925. There are probably records of the die production available. Another reader of this forum may comment more on these Royal Mint records, hopefully. I believe that the last sale of the 1926 obverse 4 with pattern reverse was sold by auction at London Coins, although it was advertised as a standard Modified effigy 4+B. There is more to this story of the sales of this pattern reverse, maybe the present owner, who follows this forum may like to elaborate.

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Thanks Bernie! I feel like it's all starting to make some sense now.

I might start digging through the London Coins archives and see if I can find it anyway.

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Mr T,

Outstanding post if I may say so. That's just what needed doing.

This thread could prove a point of reference that will be most useful. Perhaps what's needed are pictures by type. Can anyone get that started.

Mark

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post-509-0-46357000-1439133308_thumb.jpgpost-509-0-14372200-1439133311_thumb.jpg

So, following on from http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9914-4054a-1926-penny-of-highest-rarity/, I've been trying to get my head around the 1922 and 1926 pennies seeing as both Freeman's and Gouby's works have been outdated by somewhat recent discoveries. This what I've come up with from my reading here:

1922 Gouby C+b/Freeman 3+B - the regular circulating 1922

1922 Gouby C+c/Freeman 3+C - the so-called 1927 reverse which is actually different from the 1927 obverse

1922 Gouby C+c/Freeman 3+C proof - supposedly struck for 1924 proof sets for the South African government (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94427) though I haven't seen any reference to these coins or their purpose/origins in the literature.

1922 Gouby D+c/Freeman 4+C - one of Freeman's updates (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=93996) - anyone know where this was published? A picture was posted at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335 a few days ago too and it appears to have circulated; seems to be the same coin posted at

1926 Gouby C+b/Freeman 3+B - regular circulating 1926

1926 Gouby D+b/Freeman 4+B - regular circulating 1926

1926 Gouby D+d/Freeman 4+C - another one of Freeman's updates (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=93996), about to be auctioned (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9914-4054a-1926-penny-of-highest-rarity/)

1926 Gouby D+?/Freeman 4+? - http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94301 - anyone know when the last sale of this was, or if there are any books/articles that make mention of it?

Seems like the F192C mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94328 doesn't exist, or did I get lost in that thread?

Also, considering the case of the 1922 with the trident dot, Freeman says that the bronze alloy was set in 1923. Is it possible the trident dot coins are tests of the new alloy? Does anyone have one to do a ring test with, or are the different bronze alloys all similar enough that they have the same ring?

Here is the 1922, with Trident Dot...but it is slabbed, so I can't do a ring test.

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Not to slightly pirate the post, but I still can not figure out why the Royal Mint would make but two 1922/1924 proof sets and then ship them off to Pretoria, nor why other patterns such as at least one each of the gold trial 3d and 6d would go there. Their holdings were evidently truly remarkable, and don't know if any record of them was made or available - hello Rob??

Not that anyone would necessarily care, but I am slightly inclined to heap some of these on the "hypervarietal" dustbin, although a bit of passing interest and wonder if there might be similar sentiment by others. I believe that the best specimen overall of the 1926 ME that I have seen was that now evidently slabbed by PCGS as MS65RB and was from a illustrated Spink SNC extensive late milled offering about 1999/2000 - I wonder if that was one of these varietals as it was head and shoulders above the "65" coin auctioned by Heritage this last January?

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post-509-0-66524000-1439134405_thumb.jpgpost-509-0-86845900-1439134407_thumb.jpg

attachicon.gifIMG_5995.JPGattachicon.gifIMG_5996.JPG

So, following on from http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9914-4054a-1926-penny-of-highest-rarity/, I've been trying to get my head around the 1922 and 1926 pennies seeing as both Freeman's and Gouby's works have been outdated by somewhat recent discoveries. This what I've come up with from my reading here:

1922 Gouby C+b/Freeman 3+B - the regular circulating 1922

1922 Gouby C+c/Freeman 3+C - the so-called 1927 reverse which is actually different from the 1927 obverse

1922 Gouby C+c/Freeman 3+C proof - supposedly struck for 1924 proof sets for the South African government (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94427) though I haven't seen any reference to these coins or their purpose/origins in the literature.

1922 Gouby D+c/Freeman 4+C - one of Freeman's updates (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=93996) - anyone know where this was published? A picture was posted at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335 a few days ago too and it appears to have circulated; seems to be the same coin posted at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94302

1926 Gouby C+b/Freeman 3+B - regular circulating 1926

1926 Gouby D+b/Freeman 4+B - regular circulating 1926

1926 Gouby D+d/Freeman 4+C - another one of Freeman's updates (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=93996), about to be auctioned (http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9914-4054a-1926-penny-of-highest-rarity/)

1926 Gouby D+?/Freeman 4+? - http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94301 - anyone know when the last sale of this was, or if there are any books/articles that make mention of it?

Seems like the F192C mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/8353-1922-penny-reverse-of-1927/?p=94328 doesn't exist, or did I get lost in that thread?

Also, considering the case of the 1922 with the trident dot, Freeman says that the bronze alloy was set in 1923. Is it possible the trident dot coins are tests of the new alloy? Does anyone have one to do a ring test with, or are the different bronze alloys all similar enough that they have the same ring?

Here is the 1922, with Trident Dot...but it is slabbed, so I can't do a ring test.

I found a second 1922 "Dot" in my circulated coin box. pics below. I tested it with a standard 1922...both have the same ring, and both are 9.5g in weight.

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There is also according to cgs a 1926 3+B with small date.

This is one i had never heard of.

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Standard 1922 but with Dot in trident. Obverse 3 with reverse B.

post-5652-0-23772100-1439136661_thumb.jp

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Standard 1922 penny Obverse 3 with Reverse B, but struck on Ferrous Planchet.

post-5652-0-78227800-1439136872_thumb.jp

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There is also according to cgs a 1926 3+B with small date.

This is one i had never heard of.

No pics though sadly.

CGS describe the variety as "First Head. Smaller more wiry date numerals with the 6 and 9 of the date appearing to be damaged on their loops"

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1922 Pattern Penny, Obverse 3 with Pattern Reverse, similar but not the same as Reverse C. Longer border teeth etc.

post-5652-0-24917800-1439136955_thumb.jp

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1926 Penny Obverse 4 with Reverse C (this Reverse C appears to have extra definition)

post-5652-0-79834600-1439137690_thumb.jp

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Thank you Bernie it was really kind of you to go to the trouble of putting the pictures up.

Pete.

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Thanks for the pictures Bernie!

Not to slightly pirate the post, but I still can not figure out why the Royal Mint would make but two 1922/1924 proof sets and then ship them off to Pretoria, nor why other patterns such as at least one each of the gold trial 3d and 6d would go there. Their holdings were evidently truly remarkable, and don't know if any record of them was made or available - hello Rob??

Not that anyone would necessarily care, but I am slightly inclined to heap some of these on the "hypervarietal" dustbin, although a bit of passing interest and wonder if there might be similar sentiment by others. I believe that the best specimen overall of the 1926 ME that I have seen was that now evidently slabbed by PCGS as MS65RB and was from a illustrated Spink SNC extensive late milled offering about 1999/2000 - I wonder if that was one of these varietals as it was head and shoulders above the "65" coin auctioned by Heritage this last January?

I think G.P. Dyer wrote an article on some of the silver coins struck in gold in the 1980s - can't remember what publication but maybe it has some information?

I wouldn't be calling these hyper-varieties myself - I think even specimens of each in VG condition could still be correctly attributed, unlike some of the bun head varieties. Makes the George V pennies a bit more interesting anyway (and they also serve as a reminder of how impossible a complete penny set is).

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I think G.P. Dyer wrote an article on some of the silver coins struck in gold in the 1980s - can't remember what publication but maybe it has some information?

The article was in the September 1984 Spink Numismatic Circular (which I don't have) but it concerns a 1927 half crown in gold and a 1922 florin in gold.

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