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The Greeks have voted 'No'?? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33400127

Seems to me that's a bit like a man who on being told "I'm sorry but we're going to have to amputate your leg to save your life" replies "What?!? I don't want that. So if you don't reconsider I shall just shoot myself in the head."

:blink:

.

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Arrogance and trying to blackmail the EU. They think if they say NO that the EU will grovel and apologise and ask if they want a few more hundred billion. Greece thinks the EU needs them and have played poker long enough with the EU, time to say tschus

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Had a quick look at Die Welt's site. Bemusement seems to be the current reaction. And interestingly Spiegel has an item on Merkel's failings in the issue ... entitled 'Angela's Ashes' ...

Any impression what views are generally in Germany Dave?

Here (the BBC) has yet to provide any analysis (though presumably, like when a well-known person is terminally ill, some form of obituary surely must have been written?) Best I've seen is "The Greeks will head back to Brussels on Monday but I suspect the eurozone may take its time. The other 18 countries will say they too have democratic mandates on behalf of their people about ploughing more money into Greece." from the BBC's Europe correspondent Chris Morris.

.

Edited by TomGoodheart

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I think the Germans, like Most other nations have had enough of their playing around. The Country is bankrupt due to their Business owners hiding what they earn, its down to the Greeks to sort their own shit out, they should Never have got into the EU in the First place and there was discrepencies with their books.

The UK will be next in my viel, Cameron thinks he's a big shaker and mover and wants things changed to Suit him, he already Fell at the first hurdle trying to drum up support for HIS ideas. If the UK leaves then the cost of living will jump for import/export, let him shoot himself in the foot, arrogant p***k that he is.

Ok, now breath Dave :)

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I'm not sure I see the EU coughing up further cash as its likely to be good money after bad. Two things are a concern. Firstly, its by no means clear what the injected funding is being spent on. There are suggestions that the Greek government is simply using this money to employ more people in the public sector. In other words, its not being used for investment, which might help the economy grow, but is simply being used to garner support for the government.

The other issue is the vexed question of austerity and the Greek's ability or otherwise to either service their debts or manage their economy even in default. I've seen it suggeted that even without debt repayments they would find it difficult to manage anyway without further borrowing. Who is going to be daft enough to lend to them in such a situation? Which Eurozone country is going to want to permanently prop up a government that is profligate with other people's money, who have no interest in sorting out the mess they are in, and more importantly have no means of improving their situation? Thank goodness we aren't in the Eurozone - no thanks to Nick Clegg, whoever he was!!

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To me this throws into focus the question of what the EU should be about. Is it to be 'all-for-one, one-for all'? Or is it really Germany and The Rest?

I suspect that might in part be answered by whether Monday is about who is going to blink first or finding a solution to this mess that is acceptable to the majority. It kinda feels as if there can be no winners here. Just greater or lesser losses to everyone involved, depending on what happens here on ...

.

Edited by TomGoodheart

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Personally i think Germany has got too big for its own boots and needs to step back. Problem being it has the largest economy and is the biggest contributer to the EU. As another instance what does Romania bring to the table exactly? I've Never understood their admittance into the EU.

I Do think some things Need changing in the EU als a whole, i'd like to see the individual countires go back to their own currency, i might be able to afford to buy some British coins without the exchange Rate sitting at €1.41 for a £1 having the DM again i might be able to buy better coins :)

I totally agree with dave' Post above, he has this Spot on

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Easy to knock the Greeks, but who handed out the largest ever loan to a country that was already broke. Germany appears to have forgotten what she cost the world a mere 60 years ago.

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I believe the Germans paid that Debt off a few years back. I assume some people still blame this generation of German children for another generations actions. We could go on and list the actions of Britain throughout the ages or even America. We don't forget what happened but to keep screwing a generation who has or had nothing to Do with 70 odd years previous is just getting absurd.

Yes 60 years ago would have been 1955, so i'm assuming you meant WWII which actually started in 1939 which was 76 years ago

Edited by azda

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Sorry, 76 not 60 years ago. Time gets away...

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Sorry, 76 not 60 years ago. Time gets away...

Exactly my point. But there is another scenario, have you seen what the UK government is doing to its nation and the austerity cuts, funnily enough when it's done by your own government to your own citizens it's somehow ok?

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I have to admit i have no idea about the UK political situation, i live across the other side of the globe :).

Basically i think Euro 350 billion in debt is a disaster for the Greeks and the Eurozone.

I speak Greek and i can tell you that the PM and finance minister are not trying for blackmail or more money, they are telling Brussels that they cant pay them back what they are owed under the existing deal, and the proposals being put forward are impossible. Its very interesting to read the discrepancies from the spoken word to the subtitles and translations into English.

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Being a disaster for the euro zone is what the Greeks are banking on and what they've been playing on since February.

As far as I've read into this, the referendum today was basically a vote to stay in the EU or not as most of the EU finance ministers have had enough of them and are now willing to let them leave, effectively leaving them bankrupt.

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Guess we wait and see what the coming weeks bring.

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It will be interesting

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A fascinating game of brinksmanship imo! Too much money at stake.

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It will be interesting

It will be interesting.

And I agree with everything you've said tonight, Dave.

Apart from the comments on that lovely Mr Cameron, of course...........

Jerry

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This is quite a lot to do with Germany in the first place - they allowed Greece in knowing the books had been well cooked in goats cheese.

Now they whinge like hell because the greek dog turns round and bites them on the bum.

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I believe Goldman Sachs checked the books before their entry and read somewhere there was some under the table envelopes and hamdshakes

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I believe Goldman Sachs checked the books before their entry and read somewhere there was some under the table envelopes and hamdshakes

Goldman Sachs vice chairman and managing director at the time was one Mario Draghi, currently President of the European Central Bank. It is the duty of the ECB to ensure the the stability of EZ state's banks. Greece is a full member of the EZ, and the ECB has acted illegally in its handling of this affair.

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Is Mario Draghi a friend of Sepp Blatter.......?

Same mould, perhaps.

More money than morals.

Bring back the Drachma, I used to love my Greek Island trips in the eighties (hands up those who had Dana Faracos' "Greek Island Hopping" and God bless Freddie Laker!

Jerry

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Whatever the causes I feel deeply saddened about the whole affair! I've had a long-time love affair with everything Greek, I hope their children don't suffer too badly?

I love the spirit of the older generation too, so I also hope this doesn't scar them and leave them feeling bitter towards the remaining EU countries?

I heard one woman saying they might be restricted to cash withdrawals less than they can buy their family food for, despite how much they have in the bank? Imagine that, chaps? 10k in the bank, but you can't draw on it to pay your rent?

It'll boil down to the same old story! A few crooks at the top wrecking a beautiful country and series of unbelievable islands out of self greed!

Whilst a little futile, I did feel extremely warmed by the chap who had already raised 1.4 million to help! I so hope the families of Greece get to hear about efforts like that!

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Well... all the Billions of Euro spent during this crisis went to the banks in France and Germany mostly. The debts were transfered from the banking sector to public sector. In last consequence the depts has to paid by common people, not in Germany and not in Greece only. It is the same thing all again...

My dad is Greek citizen, he is retired (he lived and worked in Germany for decades). He told me about terrible things happening in Greece nowadays. Such things happend in Argentina as well and any other country threatened with bankruptcy.

Salaries and pensions were cut down to drastic levels. The health insurance system collapsed. High rate of unemployment, the youth leaves the country. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Everybody has to say Oxi at some point!

Greek shipowners do not pay taxes in Greece? Hah! German shipowners do not pay taxes in Germany neither.

Greeks become retired in the age of 56? Nonsens! These people are the same age compared to German people when retiring (app 61 in average)!

I dislike the German government. First the living standard was decreased for the last 30 years in order put pressure onto the other European economies and to establish a huge low-payment sector whithin Germany. In a type of neo-liberal imperialism the establishment of such low-payment sectors was forced in countries like Spain and Portugal. I call that modern slavery! Politicians are servants of money nobility, they never serve the common people.

Edited by ChKy
  • Like 1

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I think all the noise being made on this topic misses the point. Leaving aside the question of whether the Greeks cooked the books to ensure they were admitted, once they were in they were on the same treadmill as all the other constituent nations. The root cause is trying to fit the variously efficient economies of Europe into a one size fits all exchange rate.

The Euro is overvalued for the Greek economy and undervalued for the German one. Without full political union to accompany the monetary one, there is only the slightest chance that it can end other than in tears. If Greece, or any other country wants to be part of the Euro on a sustainable basis then they must either forego their sovereign independence and become part of a political settlement that determines everything is controlled from the centre so that you have common taxation and other regulations across the community, or they must ensure that their economy adjusts to the average for the EU. If they don't want to become like the average Eurozone economy then they have to consider leaving the Euro to enable them to set their own interest rates with their own currency. It's their choice, but there is no reason why the other Eurozone countries should be accommodating a country that wants the free lunch of no reform and unlimited funding.

Given the likelihood that the Greek debt will never be repaid and there is no appetite for reform, it would be an abrogation of responsibility for people to lend further amounts to a government that is taking you for a ride with no intention of future loans being repaid either. When in a hole, it is best to stop digging. Creditor nations also have responsibilities to their own taxpayers which is something that spendthrifts are anxious to forget. Living beyond your means is a problem that's closer to home than Greece, but at the moment we are able to keep the balls in the air because we have control of our own currency. However, people are advised not to be too complacent.

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What ChKy says is true. This debt started out within the banking industry. It is commercial debt that has been foisted onto the public sector. Somehow the Greeks seem to be responsible for debts incurred by foreign banks, UK, German and Spanish mostly.

Then there is the small matter of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems bribing a Greek defense minister into ordering 4 nuclear submarines, which were neither needed or delivered. Did the Greeks get their 7 billion Eur back? Have a guess.

There has been a concerted attack on the Greek nation with the intent of bankrupting it. Cui bono?

Well, if some of the state's assets had to be privatised, this might give a clue:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-new-mediterranean-oil-and-gas-bonanza/29609

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