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Shocking Experience from CGS - Coin Grading Services - Forum Advice Pl

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7 minutes ago, Sword said:

Pete, I didn't blame Lockdales in my post. 

I merely implied that I strongly suspect the carbon spot was caused by mishandling when the the was slabbed. It has been problem free for ca 70 years and a spot developing after slabbing is too much of a coincidence. Mike expressed the same view with VickySilver's crown. Obviously, nothing can be 100% proven of course.

All good fun and as you and most dont send any you have nothing to worry about.

As far as the handling your making it sound like companies just get your coin ,spit on it and throw it round the room :D.I can assure you they all want you to get the coin back in the same conditiuon you sent it.

Can you post the cgs picture or alternatively the UIN please .

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11 hours ago, ozjohn said:

Contamination is not the prime cause corrosion. For corrosion to take place cathodic and anodic sites must be present on the surface of the coin and the contamination aids the conduction of electricity between the two sites causing a chemical reaction and thus corrosion. In this case the Cu has not melted properly because of its higher melting point and along with Ag forms the other half of the corrosion cell with a potential of 0.28 v between them ( Cu. valency 1, cupric). If the alloy for the coin blanks had been properly prepared the corrosion would not take place despite the presence of contamination on the coin. Of course removing contamination from the coin's surface prior to slabbing would be a good idea and should be given some thought by TPGs. Given this verdigris is as a result of the manufacturing of the coin blanks prior to the minting process not the slabbing. Of course it is still unsightly and damaging to the coin. In conclusion the seed for corrosion was planted in the coin long before it was slabbed.

I don't think the chemistry is quite like that. I think you are saying that two different metals need to be separated for corrosion to happen.

However, a pure metal (iron being the one everyone knows about) corrodes or rusts in the presence of air and water.

(The very boring details are: O2(aq) + 2H2O(l) + 4e- → 4OH-(aq) E = 0.4V can be the half equation for cathode for example. Since Cu2+ + 2e- → Cu has E = 0.34V which is smaller, Cu is oxidised to Cu2+ )

 

Edited by Sword

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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

All good fun and as you and most dont send any you have nothing to worry about.

As far as the handling your making it sound like companies just get your coin ,spit on it and throw it round the room :D.I can assure you they all want you to get the coin back in the same conditiuon you sent it.

Can you post the cgs picture or alternatively the UIN please .

Pete, I am not saying such things happen regularly. But let's face it, there is probably some risk (however small) when submitting a coin to any TPG company for grading. As we can see from the videos and from people seeing coins being graded first hand, the graders don't wear gloves for a start. 

I don't really want to get into any lengthy arguments over CGS again but will give one reply to your post:

I have graded 13 coins with them before they became LCGS and before I discovered quadrums. One slab had a foreign object which looks like a bit of plastic trapped inside. It does look fairly harmless but irritating all the same. Another slab was very badly scratched and had a crack on the reverse. The CGS person didn't push the coin enough into the washer first time and so the the back cover cracked slightly when it was put on. A third slab have the same type of crack. The other 10 slabs are fine. 

I have always avoided buying slabbed coins because sellers often want more money for them. I have brought just 3 low-value CGS coins and one being this 1937 crown. 

The CGS photo which I used when deciding to purchase:

1103273578_1-Copy.jpg.9e1ddcf4c59670490d9dad49cc0e6ab1.jpg

The photo I took of the coin. 

1063316814_2-Copy.jpg.14f8f99cf18df4ca14433f850963ba47.jpg

 

Because the coin is low value, no great harm was done. 

It might be a mistake to use CGS photos when making a purchase. But I wonder if London Coins would care to comment on that? Then again people do actually pay TPGs for taking photos of their coins for later use. 

Edited by Sword

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Thanks sword.

Thinking about it also the few weeks leading up to the coin being sent to be slabbed the coin has possibly been handled by numerous people (without gloves ) and more than it was lying about for years before.

If you buy a coin from a picture by a TPG and your not happy then just send it back ,its no different than any other coin.I mentioned before about buying them from auction and doing so at your own risk.

I think you will get the odd one that may change over time ,just the same as buying one from any coin fair and putting in a holder of your own choice.

Its an interesting comment you make about gloves as i only tried them once and threw them in the bin,i am much more confident just picking one up without them.Although i dont buy any proofs which i think would be the only time i would need to be maybe a bit more carefull.

I have sent a few to be graded by cgs and although i have had a couple that were not perfectly encapsulated , have received back a coin that i was happy with before and still am.

Thank you again 

Pete.

 

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7 hours ago, Sword said:

aI don't think the chemistry is quite like that. I think you are saying that two different metals need to be separated for corrosion to happen.

However, a pure metal (iron being the one everyone knows about) corrodes or rusts in the presence of air and water.

(The very boring details are: O2(aq) + 2H2O(l) + 4e- → 4OH-(aq) E = 0.4V can be the half equation for cathode for example. Since Cu2+ + 2e- → Cu has E = 0.34V which is smaller, Cu is oxidised to Cu2+ )

 

I  can't fault your half equations. The corrosion process for iron is similar to what I suggested for the 50% silver coins except in this case cathodic and anodic sites form on the iron; surface. A process not fully understood but work hardening seems to be implicated. Water contaminated with sulfurous  acid, oxygen etc. forms the electrolyte and you have all the conditions for rust. What I described is one of many corrosion mechanisms and may well be responsible to the formation of verdigris on 50% silver coins if the copper is poorly melted with the silver due to the difference in melting temperatures forming the cathodic sites. The electrolyte comes from handling, sneezing and breathing over coin  and the normal atmosphere contaminants . I still think a cleaning  (one acceptable to coin collectors) and handling the coins with gloves prior slabbing would protect coins from contamination prior to slabbing and should help to minimize corrosion. From my own experience. I have kept a large amount of old 50% coins in a draw for over 20 years  and never noticed the formation of verdigris on any of them. No attempt to degrease them has been done.

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The problem with some of these i think is the person who submitted the coin may of taken something off.This then makes the coin not look so bad when sent ,although could then just reappear in a short period of time.

The grading company can only encapsulate / reject what they see at the time ,exactly the same as we can when we buy one from a dealer or auction .There is always the possobility a dealer or seller has taken a spot off one before selling it.

They look ok today but the odd one may come back ,like the guy who posted on this thread saying he cleans them with vinegar before sending them.

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15 hours ago, Sword said:

Pete, I didn't blame Lockdales in my post. 

I merely implied that I strongly suspect the carbon spot was caused by mishandling when the the was slabbed. It has been problem free for ca 70 years and a spot developing after slabbing is too much of a coincidence. Mike expressed the same view with VickySilver's crown. Obviously, nothing can be 100% proven of course.

As i have mentioned on another post ,you dont know the coin was problem free for 70 years unless it was your own.

How do you know that something on the coin was not removed just before and then came back , i think your just blaming the last person who had it and they probably only had it out of a holder for minutes.

I can assure you circulated coins in collections have been handled much worse by people than ones who are experienced and looking at hundreds every week.

The coins mentioned were both bought on the secondary market and feel its easier for you to blame someone for a coin your not happy with ,rather than just take it out of the plastic and kick on.

It was just someone giving an opinion and taking a photograph , i am sure the thousands that are rejected are all in collections now with owners that are happy with them

You mention nothing can be 100% proven and yes i agree so dont feel its fair for you or anyone else to just have a go at someone on a public forum whoever it may be.

Its almost like..........Who can we have a go at today as i am pissed off ,have a brew , type some crap in a computer and forget about it and let the person or company pick up the pieces from the damage that may be caused.

I dont like bullies or people who tell lies and am now starting to not like keyboard warriors :D

RANT OVER .

One positive that has come out of this is i need to go and have another look at my own again to check they are ok 🙂

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6 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

You mention nothing can be 100% proven and yes i agree so dont feel its fair for you or anyone else to just have a go at someone on a public forum whoever it may be.

Its almost like..........Who can we have a go at today as i am pissed off ,have a brew , type some crap in a computer and forget about it and let the person or company pick up the pieces from the damage that may be caused.

I dont like bullies or people who tell lies and am now starting to not like keyboard warriors :D

I am somewhat disappointed with your post and think you defence of CGS is slavish. 

"You mention nothing can be 100% proven and yes i agree so dont feel its fair for you or anyone else to just have a go at someone on a public forum whoever it may be." A forum only works if members give their opinions. We give our reasons for our opinions. It is up to other members and the public to decide if the reasons given are convincing and valid. 

"Who can we have a go at today as i am pissed off ,have a brew , type some crap in a computer and forget about it and let the person or company pick up the pieces from the damage that may be caused." I do find it somewhat offensive to say what other people have said is c**p just because you don't agree with them.

A review or comment can only cause "damage" to a company if the the readers find the reasons for the negative review convincing. The effect of an unsubstantiated comment has about the effect of shooting an elephant with a pea shooter. 

I wrote: "I strongly suspect the carbon spot was caused by mishandling when the coin was slabbed. It has been problem free for ca 70 years and a spot developing after slabbing is too much of a coincidence. Mike expressed the same view with VickySilver's crown. Obviously, nothing can be 100% proven of course."

Why do I suspect the carbon spot was caused by mishandling when the coin was slabbed? Because I believe the slabbing process of CGS was SLOPPY

My reasons: I have slabbed a total of 13 coins with CGS over the years before they ceased trading. One slab had a foreign object which looks like a bit of plastic trapped inside. Another slab was very badly scratched and had a crack on the reverse. The CGS person didn't push the coin enough into the washer first time and so the the back cover cracked slightly when it was put on. A third slab have the same type of crack. The other 9 slabs were fine. For one coin, I had to wait for three months before they told me the coin was too big to be slabbed. 

If 3 slabs out of 12 have problems, then CGS was unsatisfactory by my standards.

Slab 1: Foreign object

1287625783_1(1)-Copy.thumb.jpg.e14a1ffac876ffe90ac7d04cdb02b714.jpg

 

 

Edited by Sword

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Slab 2: scratches and crack. Unfortunately, the photos don't show the scratches so clearly.

 

1 (3) - Copy.jpg

1 (5) - Copy.jpg

1 (6) - Copy.jpg

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Slab 3: crack on reverse

415585913_1(4)-Copy.thumb.jpg.dda842ddbe4a5f0ea9d99a1c106b025d.jpg

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I am entitled to comment on the grading services I have paid for. No criticisms can be given for that. 

I am entitled to say what I suspect has happened and I have gave my reasons. 

If an organisation don't want people to criticise them, then do a GOOD JOB.

Sorry, CGS can't because they have already ceased trading. 

I know you think it is "unfair" that there are many more negative comments than positive. But everyone is entitled to have their say providing they are not libeling anyone. 

 

Edited by Sword
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Do you type on the keyboard with a hammer like a keyboard warrior ?

As you say......."i am entitled " well please carry on and maybe get rid of as much frustration and anger as possible.

Have you got any posts about someone who has done a GOOD JOB or will it neg you out

.Maybe take some more pictures of cracks and scratches which i found quite interesting.

Have a nice evening and put your feet up 

Pete.......... who does not hide 😂

 

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In all honesty Pete. I wasn't annoyed with CGS when I typed the posts above. What is the point of being annoyed at a defunt company?

But I did find some of what you said out of order and patronizing. 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Sword said:

In all honesty Pete. I wasn't annoyed with CGS when I typed the posts above. What is the point of being annoyed at a defunt company?

But I did find some of what you said out of order and patronizing. 

 

 

 

 

Its nice that you called me Pete as that is my name ,whats yours ,any trips planned to China soon ?

You are also right about the posts being out of order and patrionizing ,well done you worked that out very quickly.

Have a good night and maybe change your name to keyboard warrior as think it suits you.

Pete.....Who does not hide 😂

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Other forum members can decide for themselves who has been out of order. Everyone is capable of reaching his own conclusion. I will leave it at that.

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32 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Do you type on the keyboard with a hammer like a keyboard warrior ?

As you say......."i am entitled " well please carry on and maybe get rid of as much frustration and anger as possible.

Have you got any posts about someone who has done a GOOD JOB or will it neg you out

.Maybe take some more pictures of cracks and scratches which i found quite interesting.

Have a nice evening and put your feet up 

Pete.......... who does not hide 😂

 

In fairness Pete, we can only call things as we see them at any given moment in time - and in two cases verd has appeared on a slabbed coin, when it was not (apparently) previously there. 

So I think we are entitled to raise questions as to the degree of care shown in the handling process of slabbing, especially given the other instances of carelessness objectively highlighted by Sword. For example, the tiny piece of plastic pictured lodged in the slab cannot, by definition, be the fault of anyone but the slabbing company.

Obviously there is no hard evidence to confirm or deny fault either way when it comes to the appearance of verd, post slabbing, but naturally a certain degree of suspicion pertaining to the slabbing process will be aroused, and it's perfectly proper that such suspicions are given an airing, if only to alert other members as to the possibilities. 

 

       

  

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8 minutes ago, Sword said:

Other forum members can decide for themselves who has been out of order. Everyone is capable of reaching his own conclusion. I will leave it at that.

What on earth are you saying now ,do you need some kind of supporters club rather than standing up for yourself.

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

In fairness Pete, we can only call things as we see them at any given moment in time - and in two cases verd has appeared on a slabbed coin, when it was not (apparently) previously there. 

So I think we are entitled to raise questions as to the degree of care shown in the handling process of slabbing, especially given the other instances of carelessness objectively highlighted by Sword. For example, the tiny piece of plastic pictured lodged in the slab cannot, by definition, be the fault of anyone but the slabbing company.

Obviously there is no hard evidence to confirm or deny fault either way when it comes to the appearance of verd, post slabbing, but naturally a certain degree of suspicion pertaining to the slabbing process will be aroused, and it's perfectly proper that such suspicions are given an airing, if only to alert other members as to the possibilities. 

 

       

  

I can understand the comments and people giving an opinion and yes that would be fair if the comments are true or correct.

As far as giving something an airing Sword has been going on about his coin for four years ,so feel its just a personal frustration that he likes to take out with his keyboard

Sword has decided to now hide behind his computer or perhaps looking for supporters to back him up and agree with him.

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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I deliberately waited for a couple of days so that we are both calmer. 

OK, I will discuss this in more detail.

Firstly, the title of the tread is "Shocking Experience from CGS". It is hardly surprising that such a tread would contain negative comments towards CGS. If you think this forum is not giving a balanced view towards CGS, then the sensible thing to do is to start a "CGS: very satisfied customers" tread and forum members can populate it with the positive experiences they have gained. Fighting every negative post on CGS is not the way to do it in my view.

On 5/8/2019 at 10:15 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Can you post the cgs picture or alternatively the UIN please .

 

On 5/9/2019 at 12:00 AM, Sword said:

Pete, I am not saying such things happen regularly. But let's face it, there is probably some risk (however small) when submitting a coin to any TPG company for grading.

I don't really want to get into any lengthy arguments over CGS again but will give one reply to your post:

 

On 5/9/2019 at 9:45 PM, PWA 1967 said:

As far as giving something an airing Sword has been going on about his coin for four years ,so feel its just a personal frustration that he likes to take out with his keyboard

This I do find strange because I only posted those photos of the coin concerned as a result of your polite request. I had to take the photos for you. Then you gave a polite thank you before I find your posts offensive. This discussion was on whether the verd spot on a previous coin was there before the coin was slabbed. I have gave my opinion on what caused it. I have indeed mentioned in the past that a carbon spot has developed on my coin after slabbing. But this is the first time I suggested what caused it because it seems appropriate to the discussion.

On 5/9/2019 at 8:48 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Its nice that you called me Pete as that is my name ,whats yours ,any trips planned to China soon ?

This was uncalled for in my view. I addressed you as Pete because you call yourself Pete on the forum. Indeed you have just responded to my post signed off as Pete. I do not address anyone by their first name unless that's what they use. Many people on this forum like myself choose to use our usernames. We are here to discuss coins.

On 5/9/2019 at 8:17 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Do you type on the keyboard with a hammer like a keyboard warrior ?

As you say......."i am entitled " well please carry on and maybe get rid of as much frustration and anger as possible.

Have you got any posts about someone who has done a GOOD JOB or will it neg you out

.Maybe take some more pictures of cracks and scratches which i found quite interesting.

Have a nice evening and put your feet up 

Pete.......... who does not hide 😂

 

The photos of the damaged slabs I received from CGS are the reasons I suggested why their slabbing process was sloppy. Your response clearly shows you have a problem accepting any legitimate criticisms for CGS

Now we get to an important point in my view. You wrote: "I dont like bullies or people who tell lies..."

I am not certain you understand what bullying is. Giving reviews on companies or organisations is not bullying providing their are not deliberately false. We use Google reviews, amazon reviews, tripadvisor reviews etc. Getting reviews is part of running a business. 

On 5/9/2019 at 8:48 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Have a good night and maybe change your name to keyboard warrior as think it suits you.

Pete.....Who does not hide 😂

However, name calling is bullying and I am certain everyone understands that is unacceptable behavior on any forum.

On 5/9/2019 at 8:48 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Pete.....Who does not hide 😂

 

On 5/9/2019 at 9:05 PM, PWA 1967 said:

What on earth are you saying now ,do you need some kind of supporters club rather than standing up for yourself.

You will forgive me if I point out you are sounding very juvenile. These are the type of things kids say to each other before a fist fight. 

I cannot get through to you. I am hoping that others might be able to. I am also not hiding behind a very thick skin and can listen to other people's reasoning.

I do want this to stop. Chris owns the forum and he makes the rules. When he next logs in, I would ask him to to give his opinion. If he thinks I am at fault for even if he think your behavior is acceptable, then I will happily leave this forum. Believe me, I am not sulking; if certain type of behavior is acceptable, then this is not the place I want to be in.

However, if he thinks you are at fault, then all I suggest is that you should reflect. Please don't refer to or respond to my posts for a period of time and I will do the same for you. 

Sword

Edited by Sword

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Carry on :D

This is not about your opinion or posts on this thread its about the dozens of others ,everytime you start throwing snide comments in then hide behind the computer.

I dont mind you saying how thick ,juvenile or whatever else you want to call me ...you may be right .One thing i can do though is look after myself and dont need others to stand up or agree as i will make my own decisions.

What do you want others to think and why would this thread be taken down ,there is nothing wrong with it .

As far as not responding to any of your posts.........Bollocks who do you think you are.

I am or try to help if i can people on this forum and be a nice guy ,although i am sick to death of your posts everytime a grading company is mentioned.

Whats your name ?

Pete.

Edited by PWA 1967

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Hello, it's Chris here. For some reason I couldn't do the usual 'Mod' things with my regular account so have established this one.

I'm locking this topic for the time being before it gets too tit for tat..

I know you're both good well-respected people that have been here a while. Let's take a deep breath (and make sure there are no coins in the vicinity when you breath out ;) ).

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