1861 Ha'penny - F over P?

[Nordle11 564]

Hi gents,

Need some second opinions if possible please!

I have this 1861 halfpenny which I think could be an F over P but just want a little clarification if anyone can help..

I've run a nib between the gaps in the bars of the F and I can feel a bump, but unfortunately these varieties are easier to spot when they wear flat.

Any help is appreciated as always

Nordle

[RLC35 288]

Here is the real one for comparison.

[Nordle11 564]

Thanks Bob, great example as well.

So I can certaintly see the upright bar of the underlying P in both pictures, and an even closer picture looks OK as well-

I still have doubts though

[Coinery 926]

Thanks Bob, great example as well.

So I can certaintly see the upright bar of the underlying P in both pictures, and an even closer picture looks OK as well-

I still have doubts though

Prelimenarily looking at the spacings above the F I'd say the two examples are likely from different dies! That being said, I think it would be a struggle to deny you an underlying letter, which is likely a P to be fair?

[Coinery 926]

However, looking at the bulge above the top bar of the F could also point at die-damage, much like the recently debated open/closed mouth horse on the reverse of the veiled-head crowns? ?

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

Looks like an F/P to me...

I'm on my cell phone so the image is small...

Check which obverse it is...

It exists with both obverse 6 & obverse 7...

Obverse 7 being the scarcer of the two...

[scott 129]

isn't that reverse E?

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

isn't that reverse E?

I believe it is a reverse E

I believe the f/p to be unknown on reverse E....

we would need images of the obverse to determine what is correct die pairing is...

This might be a new discovery if it is indeed an F/P....

[RLC35 288]

I found a picture of a circulated "HALP" Half Penny, that looks a lot like the pic that was featured at the start of this thread. It does look like your coin is a HALP Half Penny! Congratulations!

[Nordle11 564]

Thanks for the comments I'm getting closer haha!

Here's the obverse..

I still wonder though, if you say it's rev. E and there's no example on that reverse..

[Nordle11 564]

These'll probably be better..

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

These'll probably be better..

Obverse 5 Reverse E...F-274

[Nordle11 564]

Thanks BCC, so is there no known F over P for this die combination then?

So... what's under that F???

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

Thanks BCC, so is there no known F over P for this die combination then?

So... what's under that F???

Not that I am aware of....

I have the F/P

with obverses 6 & 7.. Reverse G....

I will have to check my F-274's now....

I have seen some that were misleading

[Rob 2,998]

It could just as easily be a short flaw joining the extremities of the F arms given the width of the 'P' loop is not full size.

[Nordle11 564]

When compared to the first real example by Bob, it does seem like a smaller 'P' loop on mine, but against his second example the loops like identical in size, the serifs on the F go slightly past the P loop.

But it's more concerning that there aren't any F over P examples with this die combintation.

I spoke to a dealer for a second 'in hand' opinion and he believes it's dirt, after playing around with it for a while. But it's just so perfectly aligned and the dirt elsewhere doesn't give the same effect on the coin, especially as I can feel the bump where the P should be.

Not sure what can be done to be 100% certain, maybe this is the first 5+E F over P example to surface...someone had to find the first in the other die combos..

Thanks all for the help as always.

[Nordle11 564]

Here's a side by side of Bob's second example and mine.

The loop looks to be in the same place, and the upright bar of F seems to be a little wider on Bob's example, which would be consistent with part of the upright bar in P being slightly visable and then the F wearing down to blend into the P, hence the bigger bar.

[Coinery 926]

They certainly look convincing side by side! What's really needed now is a super-macro image of it to really take a proper look?

Is that a raised bulge above the top bar of the F or an optical illusion?

[Nordle11 564]

Finally have the coin back with me and want to get a microscope of some sort to check if this is an F over P or not, can anyone recommend something that will work nicely but wont break the bank?

The loupe I have is sufficient for most things and this is the first I've needed a microscope (probably due to it being a halfpenny which isn't my normal collecting area) so I don't want to spend loads on something I'll not use that often..

[Coinery 926]

Finally have the coin back with me and want to get a microscope of some sort to check if this is an F over P or not, can anyone recommend something that will work nicely but wont break the bank?

The loupe I have is sufficient for most things and this is the first I've needed a microscope (probably due to it being a halfpenny which isn't my normal collecting area) so I don't want to spend loads on something I'll not use that often..

You could balance a powerful magnifying glass over the coin, or maybe even a loupe, and take a macro photo of the glass itself? Just a thought?

[Rob 2,998]

If it is that difficult to see then you would have just as much difficulty persuading someone else that it is what you say it is.

[Nordle11 564]

Great idea but unfortunately I don't have anything to take a macro shot with

I just came back from a visit to relatives as well, and they've got a great SLR with a macro lens, bugger!

[Nordle11 564]

If it is that difficult to see then you would have just as much difficulty persuading someone else that it is what you say it is.

Tis a good point, but it's difficult to see by eye because the coin is bloody tiny haha.. In the pictures above it looks like there's an underlying P, that's why I want to check.

A few people above believed that it was an F over P before we established it was on a die combination that is unknown for this error, and if it's a first then I'd rather be sure?

That's why I don't want to spend a fortune just to check this one coin..

[Nutsaboutcoins 105]

Finally have the coin back with me and want to get a microscope of some sort to check if this is an F over P or not, can anyone recommend something that will work nicely but wont break the bank?

The loupe I have is sufficient for most things and this is the first I've needed a microscope (probably due to it being a halfpenny which isn't my normal collecting area) so I don't want to spend loads on something I'll not use that often..

USB Microscopes you can plug into a PC or laptop are reasonably cheep these days.

[PWA 1967 1,840]

Nordle the one i mentioned in a previous pm is the best one .

I was told about it from a forum member ,about £40 delivered.

Unless you want to spend a lot more they are really good.

Leave the ones at £20 alone the images are garbage.

Pete.