1922. 27 reverse. egffy alignement : i have one to sell

[Rob 2,996]

This must inevitably play its part. Collectors like lists to tick off. It doesn't make much difference what the source is as long as there is some goal to aim for.

[Nordle11 564]

It's not clear cut as to what determines a variety but I think any serious collector would only take design changes into account, whether it's just adding an extra tooth in the border, it's still a change.

Things like dot flaws, filled dies and I guess to some extent when they repunch numbers slightly off center to the original are more just nice to have as an example because it's a little different to the norm.

I guess the subjectiveness here is the definition of what a new design is.

[TomGoodheart 373]

This must inevitably play its part. Collectors like lists to tick off. It doesn't make much difference what the source is as long as there is some goal to aim for.

Very true. I can't be bothered with modern error coins. But I admit I have several shillings where the design is very rarely found with an earlier or later mint mark. Are they errors? An experiment? Who knows, but I do look out for such things.

And while most legend errors I consider to be of lesser interest, I have one which was also represented in the Brooker collection. A fact that I use to justify including an example in mine!

I guess for me, Brooker provides (or did when I first started collecting) a checklist (and in some cases a grade benchmark) to aim for.

And if there's no example in Brooker? Well, that might make a coin interesting to me too!

.

Edited December 12, 2015 by TomGoodheart

[secret santa 2,013]

Sadly, this bears no resemblance to a genuine F192A which Freeman describes a having a "1927 reverse" which, of course, is not true because the F192A does not have a true 1927 reverse, but something similar which was probably a precursor to the 1927 design. A 1922 penny does exist with the true 1927 reverse but this is probably unique - certainly only one has been found to date.

This forum seems to be attracting some members with questionable motives (not to mention grasp of grammar and spelling) , or am I a tad cynical ?

P.S. Love Bob's F192A - a beauty

[azda 973]

The forum will always attract people who think they have a rarity only to find their bubble soon burst when asking £16,000 for a 20p coin.

I very much doubt English is his first language, so we have to give him kudos for at least trying (on both counts).

Speaking of questionable people, isn't Santa questionable?

[secret santa 2,013]

The forum will always attract people who think they have a rarity only to find their bubble soon burst when asking £16,000 for a 20p coin.

I very much doubt English is his first language, so we have to give him kudos for at least trying (on both counts).

Speaking of questionable people, isn't Santa questionable?

No presents for you this Christmas then !!!!!

[azda 973]

The forum will always attract people who think they have a rarity only to find their bubble soon burst when asking £16,000 for a 20p coin.

I very much doubt English is his first language, so we have to give him kudos for at least trying (on both counts).

Speaking of questionable people, isn't Santa questionable?

No presents for you this Christmas then !!!!!

Bah humbug........Scrooge

[VickySilver 775]

Uh, well, that depends. For my six year old, he is not.....

Anyway, glad to see a few leaning my way with respect to "hypervarietals" - even though I have a few varieties.

[TomGoodheart 373]

So what's this then?

It's in London Coins' March preview .. if anyone is interested.

.

[RLC35 288]

So what's this then?

It's in London Coins' March preview .. if anyone is interested.

.

That's the real McCoy! A 1922, with a 1927 Reverse. F192A.

[secret santa 2,013]

So what's this then?

It's in London Coins' March preview .. if anyone is interested.

.

That's the real McCoy! A 1922, with a 1927 Reverse. F192A.

No, this is a 1922 with 1927 reverse

[TomGoodheart 373]

Too subtle for me! Though the trident does look different in the LCA coin ...

[Nordle11 564]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

[RLC35 288]

No, this is a 1922 with 1927 reverse

Did anyone hear a echo? LOL!

[jelida 1,196]

I presume it's the 'nearly 1927 reverse' rather than the 'actual 1927 reverse', of which only one is known, is that right? No books to hand, and my favourite penny site is no longer available to me.... .

Jerry

[Mr T 169]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

I hope I got that all correct!

[RLC35 288]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

I hope I got that all correct!

Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.)

[Mr T 169]

Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.)

Yes I agree - in any case Freeman 192B is an intriguing piece as the only known example seems to have seen a bit of use. I don't suppose anyone knows the circumstances in which it was found?

Was the Heritage coin you mention posted about here?

[RLC35 288]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

I hope I got that all correct!

Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.)

Above are pics of my F192A...

[secret santa 2,013]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

I hope I got that all correct!

Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.)

Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue.

The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192.

The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct.

Clear as mud, probably !!!

[secret santa 2,013]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

I hope I got that all correct!

Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.)

Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue.

The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192.

The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct.

Clear as mud, probably !!!

Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on.

[secret santa 2,013]

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you Rash, all the normal markers are pointing to it being one. What can you see we can't? Londoncoins seem to think it's one too and it wouldn't be good for them to be selling this for ££££ if it's not legit.

As jelida said, it's the proto-1927 reverse, not the real 1927 reverse (Freeman didn't distinguish between the two).

The four different 1922-dated pennies are:

Freeman 192: 3+B/Gouby C+b

Freeman 192A: 3+C/Gouby C+c

Freeman -: 3+C/Gouby C+d (the proofs for the 1924 proof sets)

Freeman 192B: 4+C/Gouby D+d (the one secret santa is referring to, first mentioned at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9753-1922-penny-with-1927-reverse-confirmation/?p=125335)

I hope I got that all correct!

Mr T, I think you are right about your last two examples, but "all" reference books refer to the F192A, as the 1922, with 1927 Reverse. The F192A is very rare. but the other (last) two examples you mention are almost unobtainable. I think the F192B might be the "Specimen" 1922/27. (not sure though, as I have never seen one, unless the recent Heritage auction example was one.)

Not quite - Gouby in his book The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain differentiates between the reverse on 1922 F192A (which Freeman calls the reverse of 1927) and the "true" reverse which is found on 1927 onwards. Gouby labels the 2 reverses c and d respectively whereas Freeman refers to them both as reverse C. There are significant differences (well, significant to penny collectors anyway), prinicipally in the number of border teeth and the depth of the exergue.

The coin that started this topic is a normal 1922 F192.

The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

Historically, F192A has generally been described as having a 1927 reverse but, pedantically, it's not correct.

Clear as mud, probably !!!

Needless to say, I wasn't quite right - the 1922 proof has the 1927 reverse as well !!!! RLC35's list is absolutely spot on.

Time to shoot myself - Gouby's book is The British Bronze Penny (I'll lie down now and stop posting nonsense !!!!)

[Mr T 169]

The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

Do you know its origins? Given that it looks well circulated I'm thinking there may be others out there.

[secret santa 2,013]

The coin in the next LCA sale is a F192A

The thumbnail I posted above is the only known specimen of a 1922 with "true" 1927 reverse.

Do you know its origins? Given that it looks well circulated I'm thinking there may be others out there.

When I bought it at LCA a few years ago, someone there told me it had been found in a dealer's bowl !!!! So it had been around since issue, probably, and no-one had noticed that it has an ME obverse as well which is the most striking thing about it. So there may well be more.............................

[Nordle11 564]

In a dealer's bowl?! What a find.

It was probably Scott who found it