Gothic Crown - Grading Opinions Please

[NRP 38]

I have not been on here for a quite a while and to be honest I was getting fed up of people unjustly putting coins down when they know it is a dealers coin.

I have said many times before that a picture does not always accurately reflect the coin which Is why I have always sent on approval for the collector to decide.

The coin has not been polished, there is only light wear on the high parts and yes there are some surface marks but unfortunately these are enhanced in the picture.

I called the coin about FDC because I admit it is not perfect but it is actually an attractive coin for the price.

Oz john was probably pretty accurate with his description. I am not sure where the grade of GVF has come from? I don't think I have ever seen a gothic in GVF if it was then then the braids in Victoria's hair would be heavily worn.

If I called this gothic GVF on my website then quite simply nobody would look at it and thus it would never sell.

I know many dealers who would try and charge £2500 - 3000 which I agree it simply just wouldn't be worth it.

Looking on my database I have sold 45 Undecimo edge gothics, 8 plain edge gothics and 2 1853 gothics in the last 10 years and after handling that many I do feel that I know a fair bit about Gothic Crowns.

I am not falling out with anybody and everyone is entitled to their opinions but I just felt as I have watched this thread since paul started it that a fairly decent example of a gothic crown at a very reasonable price was being too harshly criticised.

[sound 25]

I have not been on here for a quite a while and to be honest I was getting fed up of people unjustly putting coins down when they know it is a dealers coin.

I have said many times before that a picture does not always accurately reflect the coin which Is why I have always sent on approval for the collector to decide.

The coin has not been polished, there is only light wear on the high parts and yes there are some surface marks but unfortunately these are enhanced in the picture.

I called the coin about FDC because I admit it is not perfect but it is actually an attractive coin for the price.

Oz john was probably pretty accurate with his description. I am not sure where the grade of GVF has come from? I don't think I have ever seen a gothic in GVF if it was then then the braids in Victoria's hair would be heavily worn.

If I called this gothic GVF on my website then quite simply nobody would look at it and thus it would never sell.

I know many dealers who would try and charge £2500 - 3000 which I agree it simply just wouldn't be worth it.

Looking on my database I have sold 45 Undecimo edge gothics, 8 plain edge gothics and 2 1853 gothics in the last 10 years and after handling that many I do feel that I know a fair bit about Gothic Crowns.

I am not falling out with anybody and everyone is entitled to their opinions but I just felt as I have watched this thread since paul started it that a fairly decent example of a gothic crown at a very reasonable price was being too harshly criticised.

Neil,

Anyone that has bought from you knows you grade accurately and fairly.

I dont think your response is unreasonable at all. It is only when you get the coin in the hand that photo's are clarified. Anyone who has tried taking accurate pictures will confirm that the camera can lie.

Your point about magnification blowing small marks out of all proportion is true also.

I for one would like to see you post on hear more often. Your experience is very much appreciated.

Kind regards

Mark

[NRP 38]

Thank you for your kind comments mark. As I said before I am not having a go at anyone as everyone is entitled to their opinions and I must admit I take these things too personally and I shouldnt, I guess I am just passionate about what I do.

[azda 973]

At the time of the OP i did'nt know who the coin belonged to and as everyone says, we all have our own opinions, and again in my opinion it should'nt be an aFDC grade, it has far to many problems, nor should it be an AU grade fro the same reasons, i gave it my opinion of grade based of the pictures and from those it has been cleaned and has some field digs.

Mark, your fascination of my opinion is also welcome, see above paragragh for my reasoning, we all buy coins from auction houses and we don't get to take them home on approval beforehand, so pictures is obiously what most have to go by, Neil, i think we spoke before on another thread about my Edward VI shilling compared to yours and you mentioned you needed to get your photographer to sort them out, i'd still say the same now, the pictures are'nt the best, i throw up pictures the size of dinner plates to receive any grumblings of a coin i've purchased so i can learn should i try and upgrade

I guess some peoples opinions will differ, this will always be the case and it should'nt be taken to heart, but as you can see Neil, no one agreed with your aFDC grade and at the time no one knew who's coin it was, so it was'nt an attack against you, it was the grade opinion that was asked for and not an attack on the seller, we are all here to help one another and when it comes to grading NO ONE is going to agree, especially on here

Try and chill and i agree with Mark, i'd like to see more of your posts

[NRP 38]

At the time of the OP i did'nt know who the coin belonged to and as everyone says, we all have our own opinions, and again in my opinion it should'nt be an aFDC grade, it has far to many problems, nor should it be an AU grade fro the same reasons, i gave it my opinion of grade based of the pictures and from those it has been cleaned and has some field digs.

Mark, your fascination of my opinion is also welcome, see above paragragh for my reasoning, we all buy coins from auction houses and we don't get to take them home on approval beforehand, so pictures is obiously what most have to go by, Neil, i think we spoke before on another thread about my Edward VI shilling compared to yours and you mentioned you needed to get your photographer to sort them out, i'd still say the same now, the pictures are'nt the best, i throw up pictures the size of dinner plates to receive any grumblings of a coin i've purchased so i can learn should i try and upgrade

I guess some peoples opinions will differ, this will always be the case and it should'nt be taken to heart, but as you can see Neil, no one agreed with your aFDC grade and at the time no one knew who's coin it was, so it was'nt an attack against you, it was the grade opinion that was asked for and not an attack on the seller, we are all here to help one another and when it comes to grading NO ONE is going to agree, especially on here

Try and chill and i agree with Mark, i'd like to see more of your posts

Hi azda,

I know you weren't having an attack and you know I wouldn't fall out with you over something like this. It would be boring if everyone had the same opinion!!

As I have said before, on my website I use grades as a guide. If I am too harsh on a grade then someone will simply not look at the picture, whereas if they do just take a moment to look at it they might decide they like it regardless of the grade stated. We do take pride in our pictures and especially like to think that if the person likes the photo they will be even happier with the coin in the flesh.

I remember the edward vi shilling conversation and will sheepishly admit I didn't get my it guy to retake the pictures and hence why the coin is still there, my mistake!!

You will note on my new website I do have large pictures of the featured coins on the homepage, though coins that strongly magnified can make them look worse but again if I sent one of those coins on then the customer would be pleasantly surprised.

You are right azda I do need to chill and will try and contribute a lot more on here!!

[Chris Perkins 223]

I'd have said 'at least EF' going on the pics at the top, but high graders are difficult to grade from pics as we all know. The digs on the reverse are plentiful and somewhat distracting.

But aFDC! When someone mentioned aFDC above I actually thought it was a joke and I too had no idea where the coin was from.

When you say 'too harsh' with a grade Neil, do you actually mean 'accurate'?!

I understand that people are more likely to look at coin images when they have a higher 'guide' grade associated with them (because they look cheap perhaps?), but surely once potential buyers have looked at a couple of coins that in their opinion are not up to the stated grade then they are more likely to click on less, or go somewhere else. Isn't it it best in the long run if the coin image/price and grade all correlate roughly? I've not looked at your website for ages Neil (heard it was a new design) but do you also make clear that the grades are guide grades and not always the actual grade of the coins?

I don't want to cause trouble here. I have nothing but the utmost respect for your late boss and his successors, I'm just trying to get my head round it.

[NRP 38]

I'd have said 'at least EF' going on the pics at the top, but high graders are difficult to grade from pics as we all know. The digs on the reverse are plentiful and somewhat distracting.

But aFDC! When someone mentioned aFDC above I actually thought it was a joke and I too had no idea where the coin was from.

When you say 'too harsh' with a grade Neil, do you actually mean 'accurate'?!

I understand that people are more likely to look at coin images when they have a higher 'guide' grade associated with them (because they look cheap perhaps?), but surely once potential buyers have looked at a couple of coins that in their opinion are not up to the stated grade then they are more likely to click on less, or go somewhere else. Isn't it it best in the long run if the coin image/price and grade all correlate roughly? I've not looked at your website for ages Neil (heard it was a new design) but do you also make clear that the grades are guide grades and not always the actual grade of the coins?

I don't want to cause trouble here. I have nothing but the utmost respect for your late boss and his successors, I'm just trying to get my head round it.

Proof coins are tricky, I called this coin about FDC, I always think with proof coins and this is just my opinion and yes many will disagree here with me but I find it works well this is based on my own terms nobody else's .

FDC - the coin is perfect no marks, no hairlines, no edge nicks

Practically FDC - superb coin as above with only the slightest hairlines

Virtually FDC - same as above with perhaps a few more hairlines.

Almost FDC - slightest of cabinet friction, may have some hairlines and may have some very trivial marks

About FDC - slight wear on the high points, hasn't seen circulation but also might have some surface marks.

This is a guide I generally use and yes it is my guide.

Chris, as said before and also Paulus confirmed the coin is nicer in the flesh, there are no edge nicks, it does only have slight wear on the high points and the surface marks are enhanced in the picture.

I am certainly not leading anyone on unlike most dealers I am actually trying to explain the reason for my logic, most wouldn't care but at least by my replies I hope you will all see that I do care very much and only want people in this hobby to be treated fairly

[pokal02 43]

I .personally think the VF examples of both Victoria Gothic and Old Heads in the Standard Guide to Grading British coins are far too lenient (possibly the most lenient 2 in the whole book). I'd say not much above GF for either. It's interesting that half of us seem to think this is GVF and half AU rather than everyone plumping for EF. Spink suggest £1650 in GVF and £4000 in AU (and I do try to grade like Spink as I base my valuations on their book), and I'm guessing from NRP's post that the price asked was much closer to the lower figure than the higher. (I'd have taken it, if I didn't already have one, at say £1500-£1800.)

[Coinery 926]

I'd not heard aFDC banded around, but that is a bit of a mind-blower!

A couple of your coins have popped up on here, that I wouldn't say were unfairly looked at, and certainly not unfairly reviewed.

I'm guessing Dave's GVF is working from the numeric-style of grading that's used by the CGCs, though I would prefer to give a grade, and then mention flaws instead, of which there an excess of the OPs coin, to be fair? It's not like it's a blown-up 3d is it?

I think part of the problem IS you've sold a good number, which sets you up as an example of an up-there dealer. This is why us minions are mildly confused by an aFDC grade from such a pillar of the coin selling circle?

I still think the obverse looks cleaned too, though this could be the images, which someone else had remarked on?

[NRP 38]

I .personally think the VF examples of both Victoria Gothic and Old Heads in the Standard Guide to Grading British coins are far too lenient (possibly the most lenient 2 in the whole book). I'd say not much above GF for either. It's interesting that half of us seem to think this is GVF and half AU rather than everyone plumping for EF. Spink suggest £1650 in GVF and £4000 in AU (and I do try to grade like Spink as I base my valuations on their book), and I'm guessing from NRP's post that the price asked was much closer to the lower figure than the higher. (I'd have taken it, if I didn't already have one, at say £1500-£1800.)

As it happens I listed it at £1850 and have a 10% offer on my list so the price was actually £1665 so you are spot on!!

[NRP 38]

I'd not heard aFDC banded around, but that is a bit of a mind-blower!

A couple of your coins have popped up on here, that I wouldn't say were unfairly looked at, and certainly not unfairly reviewed.

I'm guessing Dave's GVF is working from the numeric-style of grading that's used by the CGCs, though I would prefer to give a grade, and then mention flaws instead, of which there an excess of the OPs coin, to be fair? It's not like it's a blown-up 3d is it?

I think part of the problem IS you've sold a good number, which sets you up as an example of an up-there dealer. This is why us minions are mildly confused by an aFDC grade from such a pillar of the coin selling circle?

I still think the obverse looks cleaned too, though this could be the images, which someone else had remarked on?

Unfortunately I would say with so many collectors/dealers slabbing coins grading terms have changed, take pcgs/ngc most proofs are between a scale of pf58 to pf70. This gothic in question I would guess make a pf 60 or 61 but then that opens another can of worms!!!

[azda 973]

Ok, my last word on this as i feel we've picked enough at the coin. Neil, you need better quality pictures, i don't think the setup you use is good, pictures are bright and this particular coin seems lifeless, i use natural daylight and use a mixture of both a light background and a dark one, sometiles

A darker one is good for silver, but in this picture the coin does look cleaned.

GVF grade, well it perhaps might be more, but if i were to settle for every coin dealers grade or coin sellers grade my small collection would be littered with inaquaricies, i'm basing an assesment on a picture that i already assume the coin has been cleaned, minus points in my mind, digs, also minus in my mind, overall it might be nearer EF, but the 2 minus points makes me drop down to what i would pay.

Please remember, this is how i review the coin and i'd rather be harsh with myself than buying a coin that would sit for a few months only before i'd get pissed off with it.

A coin has to for me also look appealing, and if it looks lifeless then i'm going to be harsh and walk in by.

P.s, i've also seeb a slabbed proof as low as 55

Edited April 30, 2015 by azda

[hazelman 44]

David,

on another note how do you manage to get such awesome pics - they are to be envied and so are your coins.

Those coins and pics inspire me to look for the best available.

[azda 973]

There really is no secret Hazelman, i always take pics outdoors, use the highest macro setting and a steady hand. A nice coin always helps the picture, patience is always a virtue when coin collecting, although i'm no always the patient collector

[hazelman 44]

Will just keep on trying to improve my images

[Paulus 1,942]

This is a good article Hazelman, if you haven't seen it

http://coinimaging.com/photography.html

[NRP 38]

Ok, my last word on this as i feel we've picked enough at the coin. Neil, you need better quality pictures, i don't think the setup you use is good, pictures are bright and this particular coin seems lifeless, i use natural daylight and use a mixture of both a light background and a dark one, sometiles

A darker one is good for silver, but in this picture the coin does look cleaned.

GVF grade, well it perhaps might be more, but if i were to settle for every coin dealers grade or coin sellers grade my small collection would be littered with inaquaricies, i'm basing an assesment on a picture that i already assume the coin has been cleaned, minus points in my mind, digs, also minus in my mind, overall it might be nearer EF, but the 2 minus points makes me drop down to what i would pay.

Please remember, this is how i review the coin and i'd rather be harsh with myself than buying a coin that would sit for a few months only before i'd get pissed off with it.

A coin has to for me also look appealing, and if it looks lifeless then i'm going to be harsh and walk in by.

P.s, i've also seeb a slabbed proof as low as 55

Azda that is a fair point about the pictures, the only problem I have is that we are often picturing 300 - 500 pictures at a time and that is where the problem lies, if I got my it guy to singularly picture the coin and take his time with it he would have the picture looking superb I have no doubt. Lee only mentioned to me the other day that we need to go through the website and decide which need picturing again because he had noticed a few that didn't do the coins justice.

[azda 973]

A picture can sell a coin Neil, a little more time on them may improve business, if you want, send some over to me

[Prax 80]

David,

on another note how do you manage to get such awesome pics - they are to be envied and so are your coins.

Those coins and pics inspire me to look for the best available.

You have to see the pics Stu (Coinery) musters .....

[Rob 3,002]

It's very difficult to take good images. I find mine invariably look as if the coin has been cleaned and hairlined which is a problem when using the flash. I overcome this to some extent by putting a piece of greaseproof paper in front of it to diffuse the light. The two sides never come out the same brightness though and the background colour seems to influence the colour shift, so it is rare to get a satisfactory picture. Taking enough good images to upload is a problem, so you have to make do with what you've got. There are just too many variables to provide images of a consistent quality.

[hazelman 44]

Paulus,

Brilliant article - i need a new lens for my SLR. Have saved the article and will look online for a new Lens.

And this is the reason i love this site