Withers Class 11 Penny Subdivisions?

[Coinery 926]

I'm just reading Withers' book on pennies, and have noted they say 'there are several subdivision of this group [Class 11]' (just happens to be Class 11).

They obviously have 11a, 11b, and 11c, which then have further 'uncatalogued' legend and bust variations, but I can't see any reference of use beyond saying:

'Canterbury Class 11b Penny with legend EDWAR R ANGL DNS hYB and Large Faced Bust with rounded chin,' which is a little unsatisfactory.

However, and to cut a long story short, I've just seen a reference on the net which says 'Class 11b2.'

Where are they getting the extra reference add-on from? Is there a reference that classifies at a deeper level than the Withers book?

Cheers in advance, and as always, gents!

[HistoricCoinage 115]

North. 11a1, 2, 3, 11b1, 2, 3, 11c and 11d.

[HistoricCoinage 115]

Each publication seems to differ. Class 11 is often used as the starting point for Edward II's reign (although untrue) there is still some debate regarding the chronological ordering of the classes (e.g. 6 & 7) and even some people who disagree with class 1b being termed a 'class' and not a pattern.

[Coinery 926]

North. 11a1, 2, 3, 11b1, 2, 3, 11c and 11d.

Thanks, Clive, that's great. I must get the first vol. of North.

I'd noticed Wren used 11d (and you say North) but Withers doesn't, without any explanation that I can see?

[Coinery 926]

Each publication seems to differ. Class 11 is often used as the starting point for Edward II's reign (although untrue) there is still some debate regarding the chronological ordering of the classes (e.g. 6 & 7) and even some people who disagree with class 1b being termed a 'class' and not a pattern.

Withers is suggesting 10cf for the start of Edward II...is that also your's and the general establishments understanding, or are there further studies contesting that?

Cheers, Clive.

[HistoricCoinage 115]

Thanks, Clive, that's great. I must get the first vol. of North.

I'd noticed Wren used 11d (and you say North) but Withers doesn't, without any explanation that I can see?

Don't get Vol. 1, get vol. 2 if you want Edward I & II.

11d isn't represented in Spink, either. It seems to just be different perspectives - perhaps 11d is seen as a 'mule' by some?

[HistoricCoinage 115]

Withers is suggesting 10cf for the start of Edward II...is that also your's and the general establishments understanding, or are there further studies contesting that?

It's hard to prove based on the dies and other evidence we have, but 10cf is definitely one I take to be the start of Edward II's coinage if I were to be specific.

[Coinery 926]

Thanks, Clive, that's great. I must get the first vol. of North.

I'd noticed Wren used 11d (and you say North) but Withers doesn't, without any explanation that I can see?

Don't get Vol. 1, get vol. 2 if you want Edward I & II.

11d isn't represented in Spink, either. It seems to just be different perspectives - perhaps 11d is seen as a 'mule' by some?

Time for Stuart to go back to school! I have been second-guessing North's input on the Edward coinage for the last week, not even registering that the information was in Vol.2, which I have sat in my cupboard, not 40ft from where I'm sitting right now! What a complete and utter imbecile!

Oh, well, you've saved me a few quid there, maybe I could spend it on a... Maybe not, not just yet!

Cheers, Clive!

[HistoricCoinage 115]

Oh, well, you've saved me a few quid there, maybe I could spend it on a...

...a pint of ale? Very generous of you, old chap.

[Coinery 926]

Oh, well, you've saved me a few quid there, maybe I could spend it on a...

...a pint of ale? Very generous of you, old chap.

The pleasure would be all mine!

[azda 973]

North is always a valuable reference, my Suggestion Would be to buy soon as those books Have risen sharply in price. My first cost me £40, the 2nd £85

[Paulus 1,942]

sounds like Stu has it but hasn't been using it for Eddie

[azda 973]

There is 2 volumes of North though, if you like hammered coinage then i'd buy the both. Great books

Edited April 1, 2015 by azda

[Coinery 926]

North is always a valuable reference, my Suggestion Would be to buy soon as those books Have risen sharply in price. My first cost me £40, the 2nd £85

I did notice the rise in value. I was looking around for a deal on Vol. I (until I had the doh moment), and was really surprised at the prices...you're right about the increase, what's going on out there?

Fortunately, I won't be needing Vol. I for a bit...at least not until I expand the borders of Edward II to include the Plantagenets in their entirety, which is what I intend to do when the good times start rolling in again!

[Coinery 926]

sounds like Stu has it but hasn't been using it for Eddie

Yes, a major dunce moment, Paul!

[azda 973]

North is always a valuable reference, my Suggestion Would be to buy soon as those books Have risen sharply in price. My first cost me £40, the 2nd £85

I did notice the rise in value. I was looking around for a deal on Vol. I (until I had the doh moment), and was really surprised at the prices...you're right about the increase, what's going on out there?

Fortunately, I won't be needing Vol. I for a bit...at least not until I expand the borders of Edward II to include the Plantagenets in their entirety, which is what I intend to do when the good times start rolling in again!

Buy now and avoid a 3 figure book Thats out of Print probably? Keep a lookout at auctions for them at lower prices if you're lucky, also the probability that metal detectorists are also buying them may be a factor Edited April 2, 2015 by azda

[Coinery 926]

Withers is suggesting 10cf for the start of Edward II...is that also your's and the general establishments understanding, or are there further studies contesting that?

It's hard to prove based on the dies and other evidence we have, but 10cf is definitely one I take to be the start of Edward II's coinage if I were to be specific.

Can anyone point me in the direction of the specific text/articles that discuss the 10cf edward I/II cross over?

[HistoricCoinage 115]

Can anyone point me in the direction of the specific text/articles that discuss the 10cf edward I/II cross over?

Have a look at the Fox brothers' work in the BNJ. Volumes 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10: Numismatic History of the Reigns of Edward I, II and III.

e.g. Page 187 of this seminal work.

[Coinery 926]

Clive, I made a response of gratitude to this post, shortly after you made it! Lord knows what happened to it? Maybe I hit the wrong button or something on my phone?

Anyhow, many thanks for that...perfect!