PCGS vid on coin grading

[Paulus 1,942]

May be an interesting watch for some ...

[brg5658 111]

I think it's humorous when he goes through the grade descriptions at around 9 minutes in. He describes the pictures he's showing with ranges of MS grades: 63-64, then 65-66, then 67-69. This is humorous because that pretty much defeats their argument that they are able to micro-grade a coin to 11 levels of MS. There is no consistency is differentiation between 63/64 and between 65/66.

In general, PCGS has a reputation of being "more conservative" on coins (i.e., they will assign a lower numeric grade). BUT, PCGS has serious consistency problems. Resubmissions will have a higher variance of grades at PCGS, and while the grade might be one numeric grade higher on average at NGC, in my experience, NGC has a lower variance of grades, in that they will almost always grade a coin the same numeric grade upon resubmission. There are numerous examples on USA coin forums as proof of this phenomenon. IMO, consistency is more desirable in a TPG than an occasional conservative grade.

I also think it's unfortunate that the examples they give are Morgan dollars (probably one of the ugliest US coins around and extremely common) and he argues you should submit 63/64 level coins to PCGS -- please!.

Based on their figure, the grade of a mint state coin is determined by:

1. 60% surface preservation

2. 15% strike

3. 15% luster

4. 10% eye appeal

I'd be interested to know of those 4 components, what respective percentages would UK collectors assign?

I have always had a hard time separating components 1/2/3, and component 4 is very subjective and hand waving. For a coin to have lustrous surfaces, the strike has to be relatively complete. Luster is formed when a coin is struck, and lack of luster is a level of surface preservation. My point being, 1/2/3 are all intertwined -- and point 4 is a subjective hand waving opinion.

Strangely, I have seen PCGS clearly/obviously upgrade the numeric grade of some toned coins by 2 MS points for the "eye appeal" factor. That's the market grading component. They upgrade the coin by 2 points because they think the market value of the coin is above the lower grade...the problem is then at sale time, dealers and collectors think the toning merits a 4-10x premium over a non-toned example in the grade assigned without realizing that the coin has already been upgraded for the color.

It's a vicious circle of idiocy.

Just my 2 cents...

[damian1986 142]

On the relative percentages Brandon, it's not good to see so few points for strike.

With the older British milled and hammered coins especially, the strike is very important. I know that they adjust their parameters according to the type of coin but there's an overriding feeling of grade = prettiest, which is just very subjective.

It wouldn't matter if the prices weren't so inextricably linked to the number assigned, but they are!

Rob identified an halfpenny pattern recently for which only 2 are known. It was assigned an MS65 grade which was bumped up from MS63. If the prices realised were based solely on rarity then okay, but probably it was bumped up a few $ by the TPG grade which isn't fair.

Interesting point about toning.

[azda 973]

PCGS eye appeal has got SFA to do with MY or an actual buyers eye appeal, what a stupid assesment to bring into a grading system. Basing a small part of a grade On their choice if it appeals to THEM or not is crazy

Edited February 9, 2015 by azda

[brg5658 111]

PCGS eye appeal has got SFA to do with MY or an actual buyers eye appeal, what a stupid assesment to bring into a grading system. Basing a small part of a grade On their choice if it appeals to THEM or not is crazy

I agree with you 100%. What's even more absurd, when a coin comes up for sale, it gets both a bump in price from the "market-grading" bump, and the additional "toning premium" that people think it deserves.

People who don't know that PCGS has already upgraded a coin because of it's "eye appeal" are then stupidly also bidding it up again because of the eye appeal / toning. This idiocy has becoming the norm for pricing of USA coins. One of the many reasons that I collect almost no USA coins.

In a similar vein, this is why I pay absolutely no attention to the silly CAC sticker that has surfaced on USA coins in the past 7 or so years. That sticker basically means that one man (John Albanese) likes the coin at the grade on the holder. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether I will like it.

While I do buy graded coins often, I buy what I like -- and often couldn't give two shits what the grade is on the label. I own coins in MS62 holders that are heads above the same type of coin I have seen in an MS65 holder.

[Rob 3,002]

PCGS eye appeal has got SFA to do with MY or an actual buyers eye appeal, what a stupid assesment to bring into a grading system. Basing a small part of a grade On their choice if it appeals to THEM or not is crazy

I agree with you 100%. What's even more absurd, when a coin comes up for sale, it gets both a bump in price from the "market-grading" bump, and the additional "toning premium" that people think it deserves.

People who don't know that PCGS has already upgraded a coin because of it's "eye appeal" are then stupidly also bidding it up again because of the eye appeal / toning. This idiocy has becoming the norm for pricing of USA coins. One of the many reasons that I collect almost no USA coins.

In a similar vein, this is why I pay absolutely no attention to the silly CAC sticker that has surfaced on USA coins in the past 7 or so years. That sticker basically means that one man (John Albanese) likes the coin at the grade on the holder. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether I will like it.

While I do buy graded coins often, I buy what I like -- and often couldn't give two shits what the grade is on the label. I own coins in MS62 holders that are heads above the same type of coin I have seen in an MS65 holder.

Appositely named.

[Coinery 926]

Bugger! I'd all but written a dissertation then, and my phone battery went flat! Probably a good thing?

Anyway (briefly, now), I think point 4 is nothing without points 1,2 and 3!

So, I was just about to break down my own values, based upon the remaining 3 points, when I realised that surface preservation was my most important feature of a coin, and deserved at least 60%...but then there was lustre? Well, that's surface preservation, in my humble opinion???

I gave up, then!

[Paulus 1,942]

Once again Stu, I'm impressed you have ventured over to the dark side of TPG threads!

Question ...

Do my esteemed fellow Forum readers think that a coin will continue to tone/change after slabbing???

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

Once again Stu, I'm impressed you have ventured over to the dark side of TPG threads!

Question ...

Do my esteemed fellow Forum readers think that a coin will continue to tone/change after slabbing???

It has been known to happen....

Sometimes with severe and costly financial consequences...

[Paulus 1,942]

Once again Stu, I'm impressed you have ventured over to the dark side of TPG threads!

Question ...

Do my esteemed fellow Forum readers think that a coin will continue to tone/change after slabbing???

It has been known to happen....

Sometimes with severe and costly financial consequences...

It hasn't happened to any of my 30-40 slabbed coins yet, but must be a consideration if they are factoring eye appeal in to the grading of a 'forever slab'

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

Once again Stu, I'm impressed you have ventured over to the dark side of TPG threads!

Question ...

Do my esteemed fellow Forum readers think that a coin will continue to tone/change after slabbing???

It has been known to happen....

Sometimes with severe and costly financial consequences...

It hasn't happened to any of my 30-40 slabbed coins yet, but must be a consideration if they are factoring eye appeal in to the grading of a 'forever slab'

It would be felt most severely with the direst financial effect on 70's and 69's as the value difference between a 68, a 69, and a 70 can be enormous...

Consider a coin graded 69 or 70 that was accidently touched by someones fingertip..

The effect of the oils and the resultant fingerprint might not appear for years...

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

I'm on my cell phone and don't know.how to enter a link with the mobile web..

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=644643

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

An excerpt from this website..

www.coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-collecting-strategies-building-ultimate-20th-century-type-set-part-1-small-cents/

In 2003, a cent graded MS-70 by PCGS was bought back due to the development of carbon spots, after selling for $15,120.00 at a September 2006 Teletrade auction. PCGS downgraded the coin to MS-69 and currently estimates its value to be $85.00. In the world of modern cents (especially zincolns), fortunes can be lost in a hurry.f

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Coinery 926]

Now we're getting somewhere on the big slab debate! Give it another few decades and the truth will out!

Get your shares in pliers and acetone while you still can!

[brg5658 111]

An excerpt from this website..

www.coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-collecting-strategies-building-ultimate-20th-century-type-set-part-1-small-cents/

In 2003, a cent graded MS-70 by PCGS was bought back due to the development of carbon spots, after selling for $15,120.00 at a September 2006 Teletrade auction. PCGS downgraded the coin to MS-69 and currently estimates its value to be $85.00. In the world of modern cents (especially zincolns), fortunes can be lost in a hurry.f

Yes, lucky for the purchaser in 2008 when it was downgraded that the PCGS guarantee still covered copper. PCGS made the purchaser "right" with a check to the tune of $15,000... If that happened today, PCGS' guarantee no longer covers copper. That single coin is one of the main reasons they changed their policy.

Of course, $15,120 for a coin struck by the billions was a completely stupid price to begin with -- that money would have likely been better spent by the purchaser by having his head examined by a neurologist.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

An excerpt from this website..

www.coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-collecting-strategies-building-ultimate-20th-century-type-set-part-1-small-cents/

In 2003, a cent graded MS-70 by PCGS was bought back due to the development of carbon spots, after selling for $15,120.00 at a September 2006 Teletrade auction. PCGS downgraded the coin to MS-69 and currently estimates its value to be $85.00. In the world of modern cents (especially zincolns), fortunes can be lost in a hurry.f

Yes, lucky for the purchaser in 2008 when it was downgraded that the PCGS guarantee still covered copper. PCGS made the purchaser "right" with a check to the tune of $15,000... If that happened today, PCGS' guarantee no longer covers copper. That single coin is one of the main reasons they changed their policy.

Of course, $15,120 for a coin struck by the billions was a completely stupid price to begin with -- that money would have likely been better spent by the purchaser by having his head examined by a neurologist.

No argument there..

Technically, it is not even copper... It is copper coated zinc....

[azda 973]

PCGS were obviously proving a point in paying out that sortof money but now changing their policy what sort of point are they now proving.

As Stewie says, give it 10-20 years amd tears might start flowing when things start happening to the coin inside the slab. Time will tell

[Peckris 579]

I think it's humorous when he goes through the grade descriptions at around 9 minutes in. He describes the pictures he's showing with ranges of MS grades: 63-64, then 65-66, then 67-69. This is humorous because that pretty much defeats their argument that they are able to micro-grade a coin to 11 levels of MS. There is no consistency is differentiation between 63/64 and between 65/66.

I didn't read it like that at all. To me, it seemed that at that point he was just giving an overview, and rather than precisely grade a particular example used to illustrate, he was just saying that that coin was a typical average specimen of that grade spectrum.

This is reinforced after 20 minutes, when he then goes on to illustrate every MS coin from 60 to 68, and then every shade of circulated grade. I thought it was quite enlightening.

[brg5658 111]

I think it's humorous when he goes through the grade descriptions at around 9 minutes in. He describes the pictures he's showing with ranges of MS grades: 63-64, then 65-66, then 67-69. This is humorous because that pretty much defeats their argument that they are able to micro-grade a coin to 11 levels of MS. There is no consistency is differentiation between 63/64 and between 65/66.

I didn't read it like that at all. To me, it seemed that at that point he was just giving an overview, and rather than precisely grade a particular example used to illustrate, he was just saying that that coin was a typical average specimen of that grade spectrum.

This is reinforced after 20 minutes, when he then goes on to illustrate every MS coin from 60 to 68, and then every shade of circulated grade. I thought it was quite enlightening.

If you think they (PCGS) can consistently differentiate between an MS65 and MS66 coin, then submit a few coins to them...you'll learn pretty quickly the reality of their methods. If you actually listen to the audio while he's going through each individual grade, it's a joke -- it's simply not possible to consistently grade a coin to that level of detail -- add in the new-ish "+" grades, and you have an even more laughable level of granularity.

While I may be youngish, and do own a lot of slabbed coins, I'm of the old school of thought that in MS UNC grades, you essentially can lump coins consistently into 4 levels of state. MS60, MS63, MS65, and MS67 were the numbers that were historically used for those levels. Any level of granularity beyond that, and you're fooling yourself.

[azda 973]

As i said previously on this thread how ican a 1 point grade be found, still don't get what the difference could be between a 65 and 66

[TomGoodheart 373]

Based on their figure, the grade of a mint state coin is determined by:

1. 60% surface preservation

2. 15% strike

3. 15% luster

4. 10% eye appeal

I'd be interested to know of those 4 components, what respective percentages would UK collectors assign?

Obviously I don't collect mint state coins. But I too am surprised by the percentages.

To me a grade is surely entirely down to wear (surface preservation)? A sharp-as-you-like coin that has bag marks should to my opinion still grade the same as one that has no marks.

Clearly if the surface is damaged in some way by natural wear or by cleaning, some percentage of the original surface has been removed and the grade drops. This is where lustre and strike come in, to allow determination of whether a coin is worn or normally poorly struck.

In theory I think a BU sharply struck coin should grade the same as a BU weakly struck one. If there's no wear at all it should attain top grade.

Of course that doesn't happen in practice because people generally favour more sharply struck coins, as we know. Hence 2,3 and 4 which I rather feel all fall into the catch-all of 'eye appeal'

Oddly 'eye appeal' is what I (almost exclusively) go on when buying coins ... strange that.

.

[ozjohn 552]

Interesting and instructive video. The following points. Firstly the US grading is not exactly equivalent to the UK and Oz scales and secondly the video explains the system used for grading of less than MS coins by PGS with coins below VF the coin is graded on what's left of the design and what is missing from the design for higher graded coins up to 60. Also the Sheldon scale of 0 to 70 has been shoehorned into a 0 to 60 scale with the higher grades 61 to 70 used to grade the surface condition, luster etc. Overall informative on the PGS system which I thought before seeing this video was purely based on the Sheldon scale. No grading system is perfect but this at least tries to take some of the subjectivity out of the grading system.

[Paulus 1,942]

So who does use the Sheldon scale then??

My question about coins continuing to tone/change appearance after slabbing relates to the grade stated on the slab ... if it is 10% based on eye appeal then this is going to change over time!

[ozjohn 552]

The US as they proposed it ? Why 0 to 70 I don't know 0 to 100 would be better. PGS use this in their initial assessment then rescale from 0 to 60. If the coin is UNC ie MS 60 the final 61- 50 is used to describe the appearance of the UNC coin rather than the wear at least that is what their video implied 0ne thought that struck me was an AU 58 coin with little bag abrasions etc. could look a whole lot better than a MS 61 - 63 graded coin.

Toning after grading could be an issue but degreasing the coin before slabbing then slabbing the coin in an airtight inert capsule should take care of that issue. This is a preservation issue.

[Coinery 926]

Question ...

Do my xxxxx fellow Forum readers think that a coin will continue to tone/change after slabbing???

Yes!