Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Recommended Posts

I've been reading a bit lately about all the different types of 1953 penny and this is what I have come up with:

1952 pattern: toothed border on obverse and reverse (F243A)

???: regular proof set obverse and toothed border on reverse (BP 1953 L)

???: beaded border on obverse and toothed border on reverse (F244), from VIP proof set (in all VIP proof sets or just some?)

???: beaded border on obverse and no beads on reverse (BP 1953 N)

Specimen set coin: beaded border on obverse and reverse (F245)

Regular proof set coin: beaded border on obverse and reverse but obverse is slightly different to specimen set (F246)

Is that correct? Are the VIP proof sets a separate thing the regular proof sets or not? And where did BP 1953 L come from? Was it also in proof sets? And have I missed any?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, VIP sets are issued in very small numbers indeed and entirely separate from regular proof sets (though presumably indistinguishable under normal circumstances, e.g. 1937, 1950, 1951, except for case of issue).

We should assume that F244 was not ONLY from a VIP set (though may have been in them?) but was a trial striking : maybe it was originally intended for issue, but then rejected, and therefore like F243A should be regarded as a pattern.

As F244 is (now) a pattern mule, I would have thought it likely that BP 1953 L is also a pattern.

It may be that F244 / BP 1953 L (is there any difference between them??) was intended for currency and therefore struck as proofs for the VIP set. Later it was decided that a further change was desirable and therefore the beaded reverse appeared, and was included in the regular proof and specimen sets.

I would guess that BP 1953 N was experimental - i.e. a true pattern - and probably after the toothed reverse was rejected, i.e. probably between those and the beaded reverse.

Edited by Peckris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to bookmark threads? I've found this one particularly interesting! Good stuff! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peck,

Though I agree with most of what you say I have this to add.

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

I got outbid on that as I don’t have very deep pockets. That said if the buyer of that coin is on the forum, I would be very grateful to hear their thoughts.

Regards,

Prax

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peck,

Though I agree with most of what you say I have this to add.

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

I got outbid on that as I don’t have very deep pockets. That said if the buyer of that coin is on the forum, I would be very grateful to hear their thoughts.

Regards,

Prax

That makes it even more likely that they were patterns, SOME of which were struck to proof standards for inclusion in VIP sets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most patterns (and as far as I'm aware, all the RM pieces) tend to be like proofs, with just the design varying from the norm, so I'm not sure that a non-prooflike version would be struck as a pattern. There are a few patterns I have such as the Taylor 1807 unfinished proof halfpenny where the design is only partly recut including the date 1807/6, or the Eginton 1787 pattern 6d in white metal which are clearly not prooflike. These aside, all the other private patterns are most definitely struck as proofs, as are the RM pieces, including all the decimal patterns from the 1850s. The nickel strikings of the 1923 & 1924 shillings are not prooflike, but here we probably have an experimental striking to test the suitability of nickel as a metal for currency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know of a 1920 pattern half penny, ex-Nicholson, in nickel as well as the 1923 nickel 3d that were all struck to a currency/matte (but NOT proof) standard. The Model Obverses of the 1920s and 1937 also range from currency appearance to light matte mostly, a few more definite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, VIP sets are issued in very small numbers indeed and entirely separate from regular proof sets (though presumably indistinguishable under normal circumstances, e.g. 1937, 1950, 1951, except for case of issue).

We should assume that F244 was not ONLY from a VIP set (though may have been in them?) but was a trial striking : maybe it was originally intended for issue, but then rejected, and therefore like F243A should be regarded as a pattern.

As F244 is (now) a pattern mule, I would have thought it likely that BP 1953 L is also a pattern.

It may be that F244 / BP 1953 L (is there any difference between them??) was intended for currency and therefore struck as proofs for the VIP set. Later it was decided that a further change was desirable and therefore the beaded reverse appeared, and was included in the regular proof and specimen sets.

I would guess that BP 1953 N was experimental - i.e. a true pattern - and probably after the toothed reverse was rejected, i.e. probably between those and the beaded reverse.

I see.

Re F244 and BP 1953 L, the obverse dies apparently have a different number of rim beads (minor difference, but a difference nonetheless). I think Gouby mentioned an F244 from a VIP proof set but BP 1953 L just had a matte finish (or at least Gouby didn't call it a proof).

Was there a proof set sold recently with a mule? I remember seeing a picture of one and the penny to me looked like a proof.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

Do you have link to an image or listing? The search feature on the Spink site doesn't seem to work.

Wait, never mind, see https://www.spink.com/files/catalogue/14007.pdf (p142). This seems to be BP 1953 L, not the seemingly more common F244.

Here's the previous sale I was thinking of: http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=144&searchlot=386&searchtype=2

Some more discussion at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9390-1953-penny-mule-rob-bernie/ with what looks like allusions to the second ??? in my list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peck,

Though I agree with most of what you say I have this to add.

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

I got outbid on that as I don’t have very deep pockets. That said if the buyer of that coin is on the forum, I would be very grateful to hear their thoughts.

Regards,

Prax

Shite i've lost a year.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have now had a chance to examine the 1953 BB/TB penny from the Spink 2014 auction. I now believe the coin is a currency striking and not a sandblasted coin/die (definitely not a proof)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have now had a chance to examine the 1953 BB/TB penny from the Spink 2014 auction. I now believe the coin is a currency striking and not a sandblasted coin/die (definitely not a proof)

Hm, and the same die was then used for the proof sets.

Anyone happen to have copy of Spink Numismatic Circular, Volume XCIV, Number 5, June 1986, p.148?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have now had a chance to examine the 1953 BB/TB penny from the Spink 2014 auction. I now believe the coin is a currency striking and not a sandblasted coin/die (definitely not a proof)

Wow I am so impressed I was able to spot it :) and to think of it as the first non proof 1953 that I had come across. I had seen 3 proofs prior so it made it simple :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peck,

Though I agree with most of what you say I have this to add.

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

I got outbid on that as I don’t have very deep pockets. That said if the buyer of that coin is on the forum, I would be very grateful to hear their thoughts.

Regards,

Prax

Shite i've lost a year.

My bad should have been Dec 2014 Spink sale. Sorry!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

Do you have link to an image or listing? The search feature on the Spink site doesn't seem to work.

Wait, never mind, see https://www.spink.com/files/catalogue/14007.pdf (p142). This seems to be BP 1953 L, not the seemingly more common F244.

Here's the previous sale I was thinking of: http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=144&searchlot=386&searchtype=2

Some more discussion at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9390-1953-penny-mule-rob-bernie/ with what looks like allusions to the second ??? in my list.

Here you go mate https://www.spink.com/lot-description.aspx?id=14007000929 - Damn at my bid of £ 2550 I thought I was going to win it :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

Do you have link to an image or listing? The search feature on the Spink site doesn't seem to work.

Wait, never mind, see https://www.spink.com/files/catalogue/14007.pdf (p142). This seems to be BP 1953 L, not the seemingly more common F244.

Here's the previous sale I was thinking of: http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=144&searchlot=386&searchtype=2

Some more discussion at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9390-1953-penny-mule-rob-bernie/ with what looks like allusions to the second ??? in my list.

Here you go mate https://www.spink.com/lot-description.aspx?id=14007000929 - Damn at my bid of £ 2550 I thought I was going to win it :(

Ah thanks - much better image. It really does look like a currency piece.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well spotted Prax.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just found this thread after doing a bit of inspecting of my 1953 pennies. I noted that on the standard, set 1953 pennies "I" of both REGINA and ELIZABETH both point to the Left of a tooth.

Whereas on the Proof pennies "I" from both points to the Right of the tooth.

I have posted the 2 I have. Are there any other variants, other than the mega rare?

post-8845-0-49345600-1450292395_thumb.jp

post-8845-0-62854400-1450292415_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't state that both have the same reverse. Also a massive thanks to Pete, PWA 1967, who supplied me with both the above :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw the 1953 toothed/beaded penny which sold in the Dec 2015 Spink sale. I can say for sure that, that particular coin was not a Proof let alone a VIP proof.

Do you have link to an image or listing? The search feature on the Spink site doesn't seem to work.

Wait, never mind, see https://www.spink.com/files/catalogue/14007.pdf (p142). This seems to be BP 1953 L, not the seemingly more common F244.

Here's the previous sale I was thinking of: http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=144&searchlot=386&searchtype=2

Some more discussion at http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/9390-1953-penny-mule-rob-bernie/ with what looks like allusions to the second ??? in my list.

Here you go mate https://www.spink.com/lot-description.aspx?id=14007000929 - Damn at my bid of £ 2550 I thought I was going to win it :(

Ah thanks - much better image. It really does look like a currency piece.

That Spink coin is a very interesting piece - it's only the second recorded occurrence of a pattern obverse which Gouby now calls C* and has 122 border beads as opposed to the 121 on the currency coin of 1953 and 120 on the normal proof of 1953. I have a specimen which I sent to the Royal Mint for verification and they thought that it was an early strike, probably from 1952 which was never adopted.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Richard, the 2 coins I have are the standard coins and there are only the rare ones after that. Is that right? Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the bead info as that gives a clear difference between the standard and the proof issue. Its great when you can keep learning. I appreciate you all sharing your knowledge ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That Spink coin is a very interesting piece - it's only the second recorded occurrence of a pattern obverse which Gouby now calls C* and has 122 border beads as opposed to the 121 on the currency coin of 1953 and 120 on the normal proof of 1953. I have a specimen which I sent to the Royal Mint for verification and they thought that it was an early strike, probably from 1952 which was never adopted.

Where does Gouby call it C*?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gouby has not yet published it formally as C* but:

When I bought my penny (with toothed reverse) at Croydon auctions in September 2000 I noticed that it had the 122 border beads, different from either the circulation or proof issues. I wrote to Michael Gouby to see if he had come across this variety as it wasn't mentioned in his book The British Bronze Penny 1860-1967. He checked his own stock and found that he had a similar coin that had featured in a Spink Numismatic Circular article in June 1986 (although he had not noticed that it was this "pattern" reverse with 122 beads. It was this coin that he sold to Trevor Legge whose coins were sold at Spink as mentioned above. After examination of his coin he agreed that it was an unrecorded die type and he said that he would be calling it C* when he next updated his book. However, that book has never been updated and so it has not been publicised, not even on his website. I will attach a copy of his reply to me confirming the C* classification.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gouby has not yet published it formally as C* but:

When I bought my penny (with toothed reverse) at Croydon auctions in September 2000 I noticed that it had the 122 border beads, different from either the circulation or proof issues. I wrote to Michael Gouby to see if he had come across this variety as it wasn't mentioned in his book The British Bronze Penny 1860-1967. He checked his own stock and found that he had a similar coin that had featured in a Spink Numismatic Circular article in June 1986 (although he had not noticed that it was this "pattern" reverse with 122 beads. It was this coin that he sold to Trevor Legge whose coins were sold at Spink as mentioned above. After examination of his coin he agreed that it was an unrecorded die type and he said that he would be calling it C* when he next updated his book. However, that book has never been updated and so it has not been publicised, not even on his website. I will attach a copy of his reply to me confirming the C* classification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×