Hammered Copper Farthings!

[Coinery 926]

I was just revisiting the sold lots on eBay and noticed this rare-mark CARO over IACO! A raggy edge, but worth a look, just for the subtlety of the reworked legend!

371179052232

[Michael-Roo 777]

I would've bid on that if I'd known about it. I guess you would have too?

[Michael-Roo 777]

Following Stuart's suggestion I'm moving my requests for Everson IDs from 'Acquisition of the Week' over to here. Makes much more sense to continue this under the British Hammered' banner.

Anyway:

Here's another. Interestingly, this one is badly cut and includes part of the beaded border of the next coin on the strip.

What is the PM? To me it looks like an acorn.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Michael-Roo

[Coinery 926]

OK, this could've been a challenge with some of the punctuation missing. However, with it being of poor style, titled BRIT, having a likely colon after ET, and 10 jewels in the crown (both), I'd say we are looking at a counterfeit. The mark looks tun/woolpack-like to me, meaning you have a Richmond Type 2 counterfeit of Everson C71

[Coinery 926]

I really don't know how Tim and Peck managed to distinguish between some of the counterfeits, some of them are really good - the reverse of yours being a reasonable example of how confusing it can be!

What would be useful, in my opinion, is a full set of known punches that make up the devices. Of course a die-study would be better still.

I don't think it would be such a difficult thing to document the punches, BCW managed it for the Elizabeth coinage (all denominations - threefarthings included).

[Coinery 926]

What's really interesting about your coin is it demonstrates that counterfeits were also created in strips/sheets. I didn't visualise that somehow!

[Rob 3,002]

Punch identification should greatly assist in determining which are genuine and which counterfeit. Starting with the earliest Haringtons which should be the best indicator of what is kosher and what not, you should be able to build up a good database. The problem arises when you have composite letters made from more than one punch as these were quite common throughout the hammered coinage.

I am also surprised that counterfeits would be made on a strip as the cost of the equipment would have been difficult to recoup. Time for a rethink?

[Coinery 926]

Punch identification should greatly assist in determining which are genuine and which counterfeit. Starting with the earliest Haringtons which should be the best indicator of what is kosher and what not, you should be able to build up a good database. The problem arises when you have composite letters made from more than one punch as these were quite common throughout the hammered coinage.

I am also surprised that counterfeits would be made on a strip as the cost of the equipment would have been difficult to recoup. Time for a rethink?

I think a record of the punches would be a worthy addition to the already substantial body of work on this series.

Edit: to continue...

I'm seriously hoping to have some quality time available for such projects in the near future? This would be a tidy little project with a clear beginning AND end, I'm rather fancying it?

Double edit: along with Mary and Elizabeth ( never enough time to contain my excitement about it all)

Edited January 13, 2015 by Coinery

[Coinery 926]

How far into the hammered coinage do you think the composite letters continued? I'm not aware (or noticed and, confess to be ignorant of) that it extended beyond the new tudor coinage of H7, other than in punch repair work on the die?

I reckon I'm going to have to start fishing out some good BNJ articles to set the ball rolling!

Incidentally, is there a good way to Internet search within the BNJ archives, or is it a manual (online) trawl through the contents' list?

[Rob 3,002]

Crossbars added to V to make an A carry through until at least the end of William 3. A considerable number were made in the Civil War. I suggest that any time the required die was not immediately available then they would make do with what was to hand. If an H wasn't available, what would they do? Stop work and have a cup of tea or use their initiative?

[Paulus 1,942]

How far into the hammered coinage do you think the composite letters continued? I'm not aware (or noticed and, confess to be ignorant of) that it extended beyond the new tudor coinage of H7, other than in punch repair work on the die?

I reckon I'm going to have to start fishing out some good BNJ articles to set the ball rolling!

Incidentally, is there a good way to Internet search within the BNJ archives, or is it a manual (online) trawl through the contents' list?

I have created a humungous mahusive pdf by combining all the individual pdfs I have of the yearly BNJs from 1903-2007. This enables me to search for content across all these archive files

[Michael-Roo 777]

Crossbars added to V to make an A carry through until at least the end of William 3. A considerable number were made in the Civil War. I suggest that any time the required die was not immediately available then they would make do with what was to hand. If an H wasn't available, what would they do? Stop work and have a cup of tea or use their initiative?

17th century mint employees drinking tea on a work break? They must have been earning more than I had imagined!

[Coinery 926]

How far into the hammered coinage do you think the composite letters continued? I'm not aware (or noticed and, confess to be ignorant of) that it extended beyond the new tudor coinage of H7, other than in punch repair work on the die?

I reckon I'm going to have to start fishing out some good BNJ articles to set the ball rolling!

Incidentally, is there a good way to Internet search within the BNJ archives, or is it a manual (online) trawl through the contents' list?

I have created a humungous mahusive pdf by combining all the individual pdfs I have of the yearly BNJs from 1903-2007. This enables me to search for content across all these archive files

You shouldn't be saying that on here, Paulus, you'll be inundated! However, as first in your queue, 'would you mind me testing out your search engine?'

Sounds like a statement from a carry-on film!

[Coinery 926]

Crossbars added to V to make an A carry through until at least the end of William 3. A considerable number were made in the Civil War. I suggest that any time the required die was not immediately available then they would make do with what was to hand. If an H wasn't available, what would they do? Stop work and have a cup of tea or use their initiative?

OK, so emergency issues excluded, examples of the 'intended' and full lettering could likely be found amongst the early issue farthings, and maybe repairs of the damaged punches noted along the way?

It may well transpire that composite lettering makes up a proportion of the counterfeit farthings? In fact you would think it likely?

Maybe we should set up a PD coalition to look at all the various coinages across the ages? Much more would be achieved that way. Quite apart from the benefits of a study with a balanced view from the outset, it would far more likely arrive at its conclusion, where so many other great numismatic journeys have simply ended in large paper files or computer files and, ultimately, disappeared on account of the enormity of the undertaking.

[Rob 3,002]

Damaged punches weren't repaired. The design is raised on the punch, so any bits falling off couldn't be replaced - hence the addition of the odd limb using something else. You are basically taking a piece of diestock, placing a lump of metal with an uneven face on top of it and hitting it with a hammer. Nothing complicated. Broken punches are going to be used until unserviceable.

[Paulus 1,942]

How far into the hammered coinage do you think the composite letters continued? I'm not aware (or noticed and, confess to be ignorant of) that it extended beyond the new tudor coinage of H7, other than in punch repair work on the die?

I reckon I'm going to have to start fishing out some good BNJ articles to set the ball rolling!

Incidentally, is there a good way to Internet search within the BNJ archives, or is it a manual (online) trawl through the contents' list?

I have created a humungous mahusive pdf by combining all the individual pdfs I have of the yearly BNJs from 1903-2007. This enables me to search for content across all these archive files

You shouldn't be saying that on here, Paulus, you'll be inundated! However, as first in your queue, 'would you mind me testing out your search engine?'

Sounds like a statement from a carry-on film!

Go ahead Stu, let me know a search string

[Coinery 926]

Damaged punches weren't repaired. The design is raised on the punch, so any bits falling off couldn't be replaced - hence the addition of the odd limb using something else. You are basically taking a piece of diestock, placing a lump of metal with an uneven face on top of it and hitting it with a hammer. Nothing complicated. Broken punches are going to be used until unserviceable.

I did mean repairs of damaged punches on the die itself.

[Colin G. 147]

I really don't know how Tim and Peck managed to distinguish between some of the counterfeits, some of them are really good - the reverse of yours being a reasonable example of how confusing it can be!

What would be useful, in my opinion, is a full set of known punches that make up the devices. Of course a die-study would be better still.

I don't think it would be such a difficult thing to document the punches, BCW managed it for the Elizabeth coinage (all denominations - threefarthings included).

I was planning to do this exercise for the Harington farthings mainly due to the poor quality privy marks on the band of the crown and beneath the crown to see if they could be verified by cataloguing the dies.

[Coinery 926]

I really don't know how Tim and Peck managed to distinguish between some of the counterfeits, some of them are really good - the reverse of yours being a reasonable example of how confusing it can be!

What would be useful, in my opinion, is a full set of known punches that make up the devices. Of course a die-study would be better still.

I don't think it would be such a difficult thing to document the punches, BCW managed it for the Elizabeth coinage (all denominations - threefarthings included).

I was planning to do this exercise for the Harington farthings mainly due to the poor quality privy marks on the band of the crown and beneath the crown to see if they could be verified by cataloguing the dies.

Yes, it's infuriating to have a great quality coin that you can't fully catalogue on account of a small weakness or clog, etc. etc.!

A catalogue of dies is ultimately the way to go! How brilliant it would be if you could go to a resource, and there find the niggling bit of die-info. you required to get that break-through in attribution? Bliss!

[TomGoodheart 373]

New mm for me. Nautilus?



251798244710

[Coinery 926]

New mm for me. Nautilus?

251798244710

Hang on one God damn shenanigans moment! What's going on here?

Actually, this would be a neat little sideline to your C1 shilling collection? New metal, and a great resource already accompanying it!

Where else can you snipe such lovely old coins for a pittance? Look at my last purchase (the first ebay bid in a year) 141530485871 [top 2 in particular] a Caro over IACO, a [VS] pellet within annulet, and the bottom two aren't to be sniffed at either...£51!

Come on TG get involved! We could between us all beat out that resource I was talking about?

[Coinery 926]

Dozens of new mintmarks, have you got Tim's book?

[Coinery 926]

Everson 96b good start!

[Peckris 579]

New mm for me. Nautilus?

251798244710

Nautilus? What nonsense! Can't you see it's an email address? mag.bri@caro.d.g

[Coinery 926]

New mm for me. Nautilus?

251798244710

I got myself all confused, I thought you'd actually bought this one!