More Pennies

[alfnail 756]

....and the plain tails 44's

[Nordle11 564]

Some thorough work there, Ian.

Thinking out loud... it could be that the letter punch itself was damaged, each successive use chipping away at that tail? It would explain why on each hub the digits have almost the exact same damage on both 4s. It does seem strange that all of the 4s match and there is no discrepancy between the two..

[alfnail 756]

Thanks for your reply Matt. It did fleetingly cross my mind that defective puncheons may have been used when the plain tail dies were first made, but I guess I may have mistakenly dismissed that idea thinking that the die makers would not knowingly want to make faulty new dies which had 4’s with the main part of their tails missing. I’m now thinking that may be exactly what happened, and it would certainly explain why I have never seen a piece which exhibits both a plain tail and tails up.

Perhaps it was recognised that the very pointed tail of the 4 was always going to be a weak spot, and if they bothered to make a new puncheon then that would soon get damaged too.    

My findings over the years are that the type with complete tails is far rarer that the plain type.

[jelida 1,196]

Is there evidence of the defective '4' punch being used in 1845 and later, or does the upper serif return at some stage? A return of the serif might reinforce the likelihood of a broken punch replaced, rather than deliberate font change.

Jerry

[alfnail 756]

1 hour ago, jelida said:

Is there evidence of the defective '4' punch being used in 1845 and later, or does the upper serif return at some stage? A return of the serif might reinforce the likelihood of a broken punch replaced, rather than deliberate font change.

Jerry

Thanks for your comments Jerry.

I have just examined all of my pieces in the 1841 to 1849 date range.

In my own collection I have 14 coins in the 1841-43 range, all of which have the complete upward tail on the 4’s.

As mentioned earlier I have 11 x 1844 of which 4 have complete upward tail and 7 have the plain type I pictured earlier.

In the 1845 to 1849 range I have 35 pieces, covering all documented varieties, and it would seem that they all have plain tails to their 4’s, but like the 1844’s they all do seem to have a part of a broken upward tail, to a greater or lesser. I can add some example pictures if anyone wishes to see.

So to try to answer your question, ‘yes’ I think there is clear evidence over the period 1845-49 of defective punches being used on all dates. Also, I have never myself seen a complete upward tail on a penny in this date range, so ‘no’ I do not think the complete upper serif returns at some point.

It is beginning to look to me like the year 1844 was a transition year after which no puncheons remained which had the complete upward tail, and that the broken punches were then subsequently used throughout the 1840’s. I am, however, not an expert on actual events which could have taken place within the Royal Mint, so wonder whether other members may be able to make better comments. What is the likelihood of several numeral 4 puncheons being made around 1840/1 and then being used throughout the entire 1840-49 date range, with no further puncheons being produced i.e. an acceptance by the RM that the original number 4 puncheons were still satisfactory for years 1844 onwards once they started to break?

The cross bar 1854 does not come into this!

[bhx7 222]

So was it one of the forum that got the Gouby X 1911 off Ebay this afternoon. Very nice coin it was too, I know I had put a strong bid in but someone was definately on a mission. I was really hoping no one else had spotted it!!!! Should have known better

Edited August 27, 2016 by bhx7

[PWA 1967 1,840]

17 minutes ago, bhx7 said:

So was it one of the forum that got the Gouby X 1911 off Ebay this afternoon. Very nice coin it was too, I know I had put a strong bid in but someone was definately on a mission. I was really hoping no one else had spotted it!!!! Should have known better

Well spotted Brian and unlucky.

Unfortunately  you can be pretty much gauranteed someone else will spot them 

[bhx7 222]

I gave it a good go just didn't have deep enough pockets  this time. I will have to get lucky at some point. Back on with the chase

[jacinbox 36]

Better luck next time Brian

 

 

 

 

[Nordle11 564]

Good eye Brian but hard luck  what did it end up on out of interest?

[jacinbox 36]

£115

[jelida 1,196]

Tough luck Brian, but well spotted, far better condition than most. I totally missed it, otherwise it would have gone even higher! I always check the 1911's that pop up on my search, gonna have to work out what happened, as it looks clear in the pics. ☹️

Jerry

[bhx7 222]

Here is the link incase anyone missed it

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GT-BRITAIN-HIGH-COLLECTABLE-GRADE-GEORGE-V-1911-PENNY-/162175333907?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT&nma=true&si=zg2d9oCe7BASOeGejSRm3tYA4ms%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[Nordle11 564]

48 minutes ago, jelida said:

Tough luck Brian, but well spotted, far better condition than most. I totally missed it, otherwise it would have gone even higher! I always check the 1911's that pop up on my search, gonna have to work out what happened, as it looks clear in the pics. ☹️

Jerry

Yeah that finished quite cheap considering the grade. A good buy for whoever got that.

[Nordle11 564]

4 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Well spotted Brian and unlucky.

Unfortunately  you can be pretty much gauranteed someone else will spot them 

Spotted by 6 people, definitely always difficult

[davidrj 194]

23 minutes ago, Nordle11 said:

Spotted by 6 people, definitely always difficult

Sadly there are far too many folk recognising unattributed varieties these days

I was following this too and put in a tentative (failed) snipe on the off-chance it wasn't spotted, didn't go further as it was not a real improvement on my existing example.

There's a newly listed one on Ebay here

Edited August 27, 2016 by davidrj

[IanB 175]

As a bit of a guide to us newbies what sort of prices would a Gouby X expect to command, in it various grades?

What grade would you give the example? IMO around VF?

[RLC35 288]

On 8/23/2016 at 9:18 AM, secret santa said:

I've never seen a copy of "The Victorian Bronze Penny" - is it very different from the "Bronze Coinage of Great Britain" ?

[Nordle11 564]

10 hours ago, davidrj said:

Sadly there are far too many folk recognising unattributed varieties these days

I was following this too and put in a tentative (failed) snipe on the off-chance it wasn't spotted, didn't go further as it was not a real improvement on my existing example.

There's a newly listed one on Ebay here

That ones Bob's I believe 

The one that Brian was bidding on I would probably value about 150-200 as its a little bit better than the usual, I wouldn't have been miffed to get it around that price.

[1949threepence 3,366]

16 hours ago, bhx7 said:

So was it one of the forum that got the Gouby X 1911 off Ebay this afternoon. Very nice coin it was too, I know I had put a strong bid in but someone was definately on a mission. I was really hoping no one else had spotted it!!!! Should have known better

Bad luck, Brian. It's frustrating to get pipped at the post for an item of rarity like that.

[1949threepence 3,366]

16 hours ago, bhx7 said:

So was it one of the forum that got the Gouby X 1911 off Ebay this afternoon. Very nice coin it was too, I know I had put a strong bid in but someone was definately on a mission. I was really hoping no one else had spotted it!!!! Should have known better

Bad luck, Brian. It's frustrating to get pipped at the post for an item of rarity like that.

[Peter 615]

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Bad luck, Brian. It's frustrating to get pipped at the post for an item of rarity like that.

You can have Bob's old one now that he has a better one.

[RLC35 288]

On 8/23/2016 at 9:18 AM, secret santa said:

I've never seen a copy of "The Victorian Bronze Penny" - is it very different from the "Bronze Coinage of Great Britain" ?

 The Gouby-x is mine. I was trying to respond yesterday but am having a little trouble with the Forum site...don't know why! 

[1949threepence 3,366]

On 6/29/2016 at 10:19 PM, Nordle11 said:

It still looks like m to me..

Yes, maybe Brian will buy if Bob is willing to sell one.

ETA: Not sure why it's showing a post of Matt's from 29th June. It's not the one I actually quoted 

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by 1949threepence

[Gary D 76]

I was the initial bidder and left a fairly strong snipe but I was only 80% that it was an X. A normal 1911 taken at an odd angle can mislead and usually an X is unmistakable, but this one was leaving me just a little unsure.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Gary D