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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

No- I looked earlier.  That '5' on yours is really interesting- what the hell is underneath???

 

17 minutes ago, jelida said:

I don’t think anything is underneath, either a bit of die fill or a small knock to the crossbar of the ‘5’. But it could do with photo superimposition on a ‘normal’ ‘5’  to be sure that the outlines are the same. This surely must be a single die variety.

Jerry

I think it looks like top part of another 'higher' 5 Blake, but then there is no other part of an underneath 5 protruding elsewhere which I guess I would have expected to see e.g. like this 1862/2  

2 croppedtextsized.jpg

Edited by alfnail

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1 hour ago, jelida said:

I don’t think anything is underneath, either a bit of die fill or a small knock to the crossbar of the ‘5’. But it could do with photo superimposition on a ‘normal’ ‘5’  to be sure that the outlines are the same. This surely must be a single die variety.

Jerry

Re. your 'must be a single die variety' comment Jerry, I have just taken digital microscope shots of this low grade Cannon Ball (with repaired 5) and compared to my higher grade example (no repaired 5) to attempt to pinpoint the dot in relation to a) the sea level and b) the linear circle.  Whilst the border teeth are flatter on the more worn (repaired 5) example it does seem to me that the cannon ball fits in well with the expected location.....and must be bona fide.

 

Cannon Ball Measurements Better Example.jpg

Cannon Ball Measurements.jpg

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....and here's the numeral 5 on the better cannon ball for comparison to the repaired example

 

Other Cannon Ball.jpg

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2 minutes ago, alfnail said:

....and here's the numeral 5 on the better cannon ball for comparison to the repaired example

 

Other Cannon Ball.jpg

I am pretty sure that the silhouette of the two ‘5’s is identical, which it should not be if there was a mis-placed ‘repair’.  I think there is another reason for the apparent difference other than an altered die. Can you superimpose the images? Perhaps the apparent dent in the horizontal of the above ‘5’ is an earlier stage die fill.

Jerry

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No problem Jerry, but will be a few days before I get a chance now. 

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2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Blake, can you post or send photos for my website please.

They are low grade- is that ok?

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On 8/11/2021 at 8:24 PM, blakeyboy said:

They are low grade- is that ok?

That's fine.

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On 8/11/2021 at 7:50 PM, jelida said:

I am pretty sure that the silhouette of the two ‘5’s is identical, which it should not be if there was a mis-placed ‘repair’.  I think there is another reason for the apparent difference other than an altered die. Can you superimpose the images? Perhaps the apparent dent in the horizontal of the above ‘5’ is an earlier stage die fill.

Hi Jerry, I've had time to knock this out this evening with the superimposed images you requested.........good idea!

Actual pictures of both 1875 'Cannon Ball' coins are at the left hand and right hand ends, both shot at the exact same 100x magnification, and identically positioned.

The unusual (italic looking) 5 picture has then been over-laid onto the normal 5 picture.

Looking from right to left, it has then been gradually removed, 10% at a time, using the software transparency feature.................to slowly reveal the normal 5 underneath. 

As you suspected, it is pretty convincing that the unusual looking 5 is NOT an altered die......... even though at first sight it  would seem to be so.

I guess it is just a late strike of this variety, with part of the top of the 5 now blocked out.

Hope the pictures are clear enough; I had to resize to stick within the 500K limit!!

 

0 to 100sized.jpg

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That is amazing work Ian!

Nice!

Jerry

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30 minutes ago, alfnail said:

0 to 100sized.jpg

The right hand end looks like a recut die, while the left hand end looks like the same die but more worn or with fill, along the 'slanted' top bar.

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11 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

The right hand end looks like a recut die, while the left hand end looks like the same die but more worn or with fill, along the 'slanted' top bar.

Altered images - great name for a band

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On 8/13/2021 at 10:33 PM, Peckris 2 said:

The right hand end looks like a recut die, while the left hand end looks like the same die but more worn or with fill, along the 'slanted' top bar.

On the right you can clearly see the top edge of the slanted 5, but as you work from right to left it gradually either fades or is filled. In all other respects the two 5s are identical. My votes goes to it being the same die.

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Cannon Ball Measurements Better Example.jpgCannon Ball Measurements.jpg

Looking again and as i did when this coin was originally listed ,i am not sure the coin is a dot penny and just a mark.

As it was damage to the die and unintentional ,also proven not to be many ,i think having the blocked 5 atleast one other would of shown the same ,even though there is not many known.

Also the line to the linear circle is not to the same part of the coin ,one is higher to a tooth and although only a fraction of a difference does not put the supposed dot in the same place.

I am often wrong ,but not convinced with this one 😀

 

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The fact that the 5 is an exact match (apart from blocking) + the distances to both the sea and linear circle (which place the dot in the correct position) make me think that it is an example of the cannon ball.

If the tooth on the better example had been flattened through wear then the horizontal red line would also meet at the same point as the lower grade (worn) piece.

Here's another shot of the cannon ball on the worn piece, which I think is a little more convincing. The overhead shot with the digital microscope, used to get the measurements, has light reflection and makes the actual dot less convincing.

I think this is a cannon ball penny, but guess we will see whether Richard agrees!

Cannon Ball (2).jpg

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Yes the natural picture looks much better.

With regards wear though ,if the tooth became wider or longer ,then the centre / tip or middle should still be in the same place.We are looking at images and that may be the reason i have my doubts also.

If you say it is one and have the coin in hand then thats good enough for me 👍

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4 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Cannon Ball Measurements.jpg

 

As I'm still looking for an example, I would be content if I had found it.

More convincing than the superpoor possible VIGTORIA that I found a while back..

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3 hours ago, alfnail said:

I think this is a cannon ball penny, but guess we will see whether Richard agrees!

I'll ask Fiona Bruce (Fake or Fortune).

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A couple of high grade for type pennies in the next Baldwin Auction on 6th October.

The coins are not mine but have permission to share the picture of this one ,i believe the full auction will be online Thursday night / Friday morning if you are registered.

Alternatively pre - register online or phone up for the hard copy catalogue ,if you are interested.

 

 

1882-w-m.jpg

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On 8/16/2021 at 3:02 PM, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

As I'm still looking for an example, I would be content if I had found it.

More convincing than the superpoor possible VIGTORIA that I found a while back..

A little while back LCA offered two VIGTORIA'S, and I did toy with the idea of going for one. But in truth they were so poor, I decided not to bother.

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Very pleased to have won this 1848/7 at the recent DNW auction (lot 302). There are 3 main types of 8/7, the first is where the downward 45 degree stroke of the 7 intersects the lower loop of the 8 on the left hand side. The second is the same dissecting the lower loop of the eight through the centre, and the third is the same where it dissects the lower loop of the 8 on the right hand side. It is this third type (unrecorded by Bramah) that is by far the scarcest of the three.

The first two images are mine. The last one was taken from the DNW site as their magnification facility is outstandingly good, enabling you to confirm detail that leaves you guessing on other websites.  

 

eight over far seven obverse cropped.jpg

eight over far seven reverse cropped.jpg

eight over seven far right cropped.png

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On 9/7/2021 at 8:29 PM, PWA 1967 said:

A couple of high grade for type pennies in the next Baldwin Auction on 6th October.

The coins are not mine but have permission to share the picture of this one ,i believe the full auction will be online Thursday night / Friday morning if you are registered.

Alternatively pre - register online or phone up for the hard copy catalogue ,if you are interested.

 

 

1882-w-m.jpg

I wonder if that's the Gerald Jackson example sold Spink USA in 2014.

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No, I think it's different having just checked. The Jackson coin (17th June 2014, lot 1053) went for $21,000, didn't have the small spot in front of the neck, and looked more lustrous as well, though often difficult to tell from photography (it was graded MS64RB).

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16 hours ago, oldcopper said:

No, I think it's different having just checked. The Jackson coin (17th June 2014, lot 1053) went for $21,000, didn't have the small spot in front of the neck, and looked more lustrous as well, though often difficult to tell from photography (it was graded MS64RB).

Yes your right Pete ,it isnt the Jackson coin.

The picture i used was the grading companies photograph ,Baldwin have done there own picture and with the magnifier on the website will be much better to give a true picture.

I think considering how difficult it has been to get stock for auctions of such rarity and high grade they have done a fantastic job putting such a good sale together.

A couple of nice rare farthings and a realistically priced estimate 1860 copper penny also i believe. 

Edited by PWA 1967

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I just tried to find the 1882 on Baldwin's site, but no luck searching for 'penny',  since 'penny' isn't used in the coin's description.

'1882' as a search term went straight to it.

Are there other pennies in the auction that are similarly 'hidden'?

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6 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I just tried to find the 1882 on Baldwin's site, but no luck searching for 'penny',  since 'penny' isn't used in the coin's description.

'1882' as a search term went straight to it.

Are there other pennies in the auction that are similarly 'hidden'?

Yes they are aware but cant alter it untill the office opens 👍

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