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13 minutes ago, jelida said:

I would say the fact it came from Seabys for £20 in 1992 confirms it not to be genuine, even then a unique coin would have fetched hundreds.

Jerry

Didn't Seaby's close about 1990? 

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41 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

Didn't Seaby's close about 1990? 

Taken over by CNG 1991-2

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Reverse colon positions are clearly different locations on yours compared to the one on ebay earlier Gary. e.g. slanting opposite directions on FID :

I see that the 1 on yours also has the protruding underneath numeral 1, top left, and bits sticking out of the 0 (zero), which is typical of an 1858 or 1859 (no w.w.) .....think yours is a 9 under.

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12 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Reverse colon positions are clearly different locations on yours compared to the one on ebay earlier Gary. e.g. slanting opposite directions on FID :

I see that the 1 on yours also has the protruding underneath numeral 1, top left, and bits sticking out of the 0 (zero), which is typical of an 1858 or 1859 (no w.w.) .....think yours is a 9 under.

Also, the 5 of the date is different to the first one, which was a small date type.

Plus, the T of GRATIA has that tiny extension to the right of the base serif, referred to by Bramah (page 4), indicating that it's a tooled 1859 large date penny.

With the first one, I can't tell definitively whether that extension to the base serif of the same T is there or not. I don't think it is. So maybe a tooled 1858.

 

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Can't be 100% sure but when blow up the picture of the one on ebay earlier I think there is that bit sticking out bottom right of the T of GRATIA which we have discussed on the forum before now.......and again typical of the 1859.

There is also a die flaw on the ebay one from earlier; 4 beads from left hand side of numeral 1 and running from front of truncation to border tooth in a curved shape. I have just checked all my 1859's but cannot find a piece with same die flaw location.......but maybe another member can find on one of theirs.

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Ha, you beat me to it Mike....should have checked!

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2 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Ha, you beat me to it Mike....should have checked!

I bet quite a few have been tooled over the years Ian, maybe well over a century ago. To make them look like an 1850.  

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6 hours ago, jelida said:

I would say the fact it came from Seabys for £20 in 1992 confirms it not to be genuine, even then a unique coin would have fetched hundreds.

Jerry

Agreed. Or else 'old man Seaby' owned it simply as a curio, though knowing it was not authentic.

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I can't work out how it's done anyway- did someone tool the area flat, and then somehow remove a '0' from another penny

and somehow fix it on?   Surely 'tooling' implies removing material, yet to do a '0' requires adding material?

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5 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I can't work out how it's done anyway- did someone tool the area flat, and then somehow remove a '0' from another penny

and somehow fix it on?   Surely 'tooling' implies removing material, yet to do a '0' requires adding material?

If that were the case, it would beg the question of what years are available to take the "0" from.

I am probably missing a date as I am writing this without referring to a guide, but the only dates on copper pennies that have a "0" in the date are 1806, 1807, and 1860.... 1808 excepted as unique..

I believe they have a method of softening the metal around the digit and moving the metal as required....

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On 7 January 2021 at 10:31 AM, 1949threepence said:

No, I didn't buy it, but probably could have done as I saw it as soon as it came on, on an auction not BIN,

 Zooming in on the available pictures it did not look authentic to me, but I asked the seller for better date pictures anyway, and was considering bidding as a curiosity. It was then sold before receiving better date pictures from the seller. 

Hi, all. I bought it, indeed as a curiosity. The seller had a "best offer" button on the listing, so I put in an offer and he accepted! I can confirm it has indeed been modified from an 1859 specimen. There is no w.w. and under extreme magnification one can see where material has been moved from the centre of the 9 to plug the "gap" at about 8 o'clock in the original digit so it looks like a continuous curve. But, my word, it has been done skilfully! I bought it as I remembered seeing one before (presumably Gary's above) and wondered how many others might be out there. I will try to take close-ups of the date later and post.

The seller also told me that he bought it from Seaby's when they closed down and said it had been in old man Seaby's (would that be Peter Seaby??) personal collection as a curio. Wonder if he bought it from the auction Bramah mentioned? No way of knowing that, I guess...

So, not a unique rarity - never thought it was - but a brilliantly executed alteration. Wonder why anyone would take the time and effort to do it, though?

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Close up of date...

A real bit of craftsmanship, but why?!

 

DSC00008.JPG

DSC00007.JPG

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Easy answer, to get money i would say. Always a chance that somebody would pay silly money.

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Posted (edited)

Even back in 1927 in the auction?? Or indeed even when it was done (presumably) in Victorian times? Not a lot of money has been made with it if Seaby sold it for £20 back in 1992 and I paid £25 in 2021 !! Must have taken many hours to produce, so a good deal below the minimum wage! Anyway, a nice curio...

Edited by Martinminerva
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50 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

Even back in 1927 in the auction?? Or indeed even when it was done (presumably) in Victorian times? Not a lot of money has been made with it if Seaby sold it for £20 back in 1992 and I paid £25 in 2021 !! Must have taken many hours to produce, so a good deal below the minimum wage! Anyway, a nice curio...

I suppose everybody is now aware that there was no mintage in 1850, and that what are effectively contemporary forgeries are just that - forgeries, but nonetheless of interest.

Back in the 19th century such a tooled item might have fooled the more naive collector anxious for something unique. It certainly fooled Batty.

When it sold in the 1927 auction, it probably went more as a curio than anything else. It was bought with an 1860/59, described as "extremely fine" for just £2-10-0. It would have been the 1860/59 the buyer was seeking. An absolute gift by today's standards. Just calculated it through an inflation calculator. £2.50 then would be £161.00 now.               

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P1040810.jpeg.14ed65d39d01405cecb22e28eef1c65f.jpeg

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17 hours ago, Martinminerva said:

Must have taken many hours to produce, so a good deal below the minimum wage! Anyway, a nice curio...

Any skilled metal worker could have done that. A watch repairer or a plumber.  A little flux and a bit of solder. Get two '59s and on the first one carefully file off the parts you dont wont. Five minutes. Take the second 59 and carefully cut off a "repair" section using a chisel. Five minutes. Flatten the underside using 1000 grit wet and dry. A touch of flux and a  bit of solder on the underside. Heat till the solder melts. Five minutes. A touch of flux on the first penny, place the repair section on and heat using a flame. Tidy any excess solder with a pick . Five minutes. Job done. Twenty minutes total. So that was the first one, now that I know what I'm doing and I've assembled all the tools I need and got the workspace sorted, rattle off the other eleven. Forty minutes. Skilled mans wage, 1/- an hour. Flog 'em for 2/- each. Quids in. Lubbly Jubbly.

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Umm, posting instructions on social media about how to deface the queen's coinage - you're nicked, chummy !

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On 12/27/2020 at 3:33 PM, mrbadexample said:

I've been waiting for someone to reply with a good idea but it seems that we're all a bit unsure Ian. :lol:

I take the view that intervention becomes necessary when it would worsen if left untouched. I really dislike verdigris and if this was a £10 coin then I'd have no qualms about getting the reverse in some diluted lemon juice - I'd put a cocktail stick under the good side and just try to dunk the polluted half. It would strip the patina but once done I'd cart it about in my pocket for 6 months or so until it improved in appearance. It'd never look great but it wouldn't matter much.

But it's not a £10 coin so I'd be really concerned my clumsy efforts would make a poor situation worse. I don't think Verdicare would touch it. In my experience olive oil takes forever to do nothing. Perhaps it would be worth contacting one of the TPGs that offers "conservation" services and see what they think they could do with it?

I'd be interested to see how you get on. I would struggle to leave it. :unsure:

I think Jerry has done an excellent job removing the verdigris. He has also started getting the coin more evenly toned, but is leaving with me to decide how far to take it.

Any thoughts welcomed, thanks.  

1847MJ Before and After_Sized.jpg

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I

18 minutes ago, alfnail said:

more detailed picture of reverse

revnew_sell_sized.jpg

That is an impressive job that you have done there Jerry, and quickly too.

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