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41 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Interesting Mike. I knew that I had seen that quite often but not explored further. I have just checked all my No WW's and found this 'secret' mark on all of them, including 1858's as well as 1589 and 1860. Picture below for reference. Bramah also talks about other secret mint marks, is anyone aware of what they might be on the YH Copper Penny?

I guess with banknotes that was done as a fraud prevention measure prior to such things as microprinting becoming available.

P.S. I still have my spare decent copy of Bramah.......not a sales pitch!!

  

No WW GRATIA T Base Extended to Right.jpg

Yes, fraud prevention would obviously have been the objective behind secret mint marks on notes, but even that long ago, I wouldn't have thought there would have been any imperative for putting them on pennies for the same reason. It's an odd one, Ian. 

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Bramah also talks about other secret mint marks, is anyone aware of what they might be on the YH Copper Penny?

Larry's "lions and lambs" ?

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48 minutes ago, Diaconis said:

Larry's "lions and lambs" ?

There will almost certainly be a logical rationale behind what Bramah said.  

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7 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

There will almost certainly be a logical rationale behind what Bramah said.  

I think Bramah was writing in a time when the idea of ‘privy’ marks on milled coinage was widely accepted, as the 1897 ‘dot’ penny.  I would consider the mark below the ‘T’ to have some other, non deliberate, origin unless it could be definitively proven otherwise , which is unlikely now. I don’t know of contemporary Victorian forgeries that would require differentiation from genuine by a privy mark, and die studies were openly undertaken by die numbering or lettering.
Jerry

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On 9/14/2020 at 8:02 AM, alfnail said:

The 1857 Gouby Date Style C is seen paired with both OT and PT; I have both types in my collection. I'm pretty sure I have seen it paired with the Ornamental Trident less often, but I have not attempted any stats on this.

The most interesting one I have found is this one (Plain Trident Reverse), which has a 'repaired' numeral 8.

Just back from holiday last night, internet was not good whilst away. Can see I missed a few posts about Victorian Copper pennies, and think I may have a few additional comments to make when get time. 

 

1857 Gouby Date Style C on Plain Trident.jpg

Pleased to say I have now managed to get one paired with OT. So now have the type in both PT & OT. They are really not easy to find, but wasn't ID'd as one by the seller - a lesser known type perhaps:-

 

Bramah 23a rev.jpg

Bramah 23a obv.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

Usual Lukasz nonsense. Definitely not a die 3 penny, just a reasonably nice circulated 1863. If bidders are sensible it will go somewhere between £15-40. 

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Lukasz certainly has got green fingers when it comes to finding rarities.

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If that's a three, I'm Mother Teresa.

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48 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Lukasz certainly has got green fingers when it comes to finding rarities.

He's not that bad actually, he sold a real die letter halfpenny a while back, went for a very reasonable £50 (although only Poor or so) given that some people were a bit overly cautious. I buy a fair bit from him, but you have to ignore the description and just look at the pictures, which are normally clear enough to understand exactly what's on offer.

It's nice when he beats you to a bulk lot at auction because you know ~ everything will end up on eBay so you get a second chance to snag anything you particularly liked...

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:09 AM, AtlasNumismatics said:

Thank you very much @alfnail and everyone else for your useful comments. These die characteristics match perfectly and we will assume it is a degraded 5/5 punch and submit for reholder at PCGS.

 

Dear All,

PCGS has reviewed this piece and still believes it to be 5/4, although they haven't given any further reasoning. They have declined to modify the description on the insert so you will see it in the PCGS population report as such.

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45 minutes ago, AtlasNumismatics said:

Dear All,

PCGS has reviewed this piece and still believes it to be 5/4, although they haven't given any further reasoning. They have declined to modify the description on the insert so you will see it in the PCGS population report as such.

Unfortunately i dont think unless something is brought to there attention the American grading companies knowledge in varieties for British copper pennies is something they specialize in.

You recently had a few that were listed on eBay and none of the varieties were attributed which although may not make them worth anymore i feel might help you to sell them.

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7 hours ago, Martinminerva said:

I see it's already at £155 !!

Some people are really gullible... Hope no-one on here is bidding.

Surely if you're willing to pay a three figure sum (or maybe more ultimately) for a "rarity", you'd think you'd know enough about coins to know that this IS NOT a die number penny. I think it has actually been doctored to masquerade as such - and not very well at that!

Any guesses what it will finally make?! And then for whoever buys it, any guesses as to when they'll realise they've been burnt! Presumably if and when they try to resell...

Fools!

 

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10 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

I see it's already at £155 !!

Some people are really gullible... Hope no-one on here is bidding.

Surely if you're willing to pay a three figure sum (or maybe more ultimately) for a "rarity", you'd think you'd know enough about coins to know that this IS NOT a die number penny. I think it has actually been doctored to masquerade as such - and not very well at that!

Any guesses what it will finally make?! And then for whoever buys it, any guesses as to when they'll realise they've been burnt! Presumably if and when they try to resell...

Fools!

 

The moment they open the packet, and then frantically look through a magnifier to know for sure they've been shafted. 

Even then some would be in denial.

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Lukasz clearly has a good knowledge of coin rarities, or he could not mis-describe them so regularly; I think it must be a deliberate sales ploy, as it enhances the prices and even if some are returned he wins; it is not a victimless pursuit however, as less knowledgable collectors/investors can be guided by the supposed good reputation of an established EBay seller, and whenever this trust in ‘experts’ is broken genuine honest dealers are likely tarred with the  same brush and overall trade suffers. Not to forget the many enthusiastic but less knowledgeable collectors happily enjoying their expensive though  ‘ bargain priced‘ trays of ‘mint errors’, rarities and Saxon pennies from Poland where they are now ‘found’ in greater numbers than the Vikings ever took over.  They will end up bitten.
 

Jerry

Edited by jelida
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I've temporarily added this to my rare penny site as a "non-example" just in case someone looks on there but I guess the people who are bidding on this coin are probably not aware of the site.

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Even London Coins have a fairly decent picture of a die number 3. Looks nothing like the one on ebay, unsurprisingly.img.jpeg.e3b77329645a2f7d61486c1e11b6a8d4.jpeg

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47 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

I think it has actually been doctored to masquerade as such - and not very well at that!

I don't think so...I think it's just a surface lamination or even a gouge...it's so totally unconvincing it's hard to imagine anyone considering a successful "doctoring" ! The "3" is not even in the right place. 

But the price is shocking; let's hope it's the vendor bidding against himself (he can do that without scrutiny because it's a private listing sadly). 

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Now £255, with eight days still to run.

People are mental.

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4 minutes ago, Michael-Roo said:

 

Now £255, with eight days still to run.

People are mental.

If I didn't often buy things from Lucas, I'd be tempted to put £1k on it or something and then just not pay when I won, on the grounds that it is not as described. But I'm afraid I'd probably end up on his blocked bidder list. 

 

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Just to confirm it's not genuine, it doesn't have the die flaw by the O of ONE.

1869448181_1863F46Die3edgeflawzoom.jpg.87d84e6653b76eeb22ed1ea1f36c180d.jpg

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9 minutes ago, JLS said:

If I didn't often buy things from Lucas, I'd be tempted to put £1k on it or something and then just not pay when I won, on the grounds that it is not as described. But I'm afraid I'd probably end up on his blocked bidder list. 

 

Although the price is a bit of a giveaway. If it were truly an 1863 die no 3 under date in that higher grade condition, it would already be a lot higher as more experienced collectors realised what it was. In auction it would almost certainly go for probably > £6k, as it would easily be the best of the very small cohort.   

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15 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Although the price is a bit of a giveaway. If it were truly an 1863 die no 3 under date in that higher grade condition, it would already be a lot higher as more experienced collectors realised what it was. In auction it would almost certainly go for probably > £6k, as it would easily be the best of the very small cohort.   

Maybe, although I think experienced collectors tend to snipe things on eBay. When there was an 1860 TB/BB mule on eBay last, it went from £250 to £1k in the last 5 seconds if I recall rightly. 

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51 minutes ago, secret santa said:

It's gone !!!

The page now says "the listing is no longer available." That often means the seller has sold it off-platform!

Wonder if some idiot made him an offer he couldn't refuse?!

Keep eyes peeled, though, in case it is relisted with a different or more accurate description!

 

Edited by Martinminerva
Typo!

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