Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Recommended Posts

Not convinced that is just a spot of dirt!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m with Paddy here. I looked at it too, and thought it looked like a blob of corrosion, especially in the slanted picture. And Lukas has a long history with this sort of thing.

Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jelida said:

I’m with Paddy here. I looked at it too, and thought it looked like a blob of corrosion, especially in the slanted picture. And Lukas has a long history with this sort of thing.

Jerry

That's why I never bothered with it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody who's got a copy of Bramah's work will know that on page 106, at type 24a, he mentions that the date of the plain trident 1857 penny is in much smaller figures, and refers to col 1108 of the March 1895 Numismatic Circular. I've managed to obtain a scan of this, and although it doesn't amount to very much, it is nonetheless quite interesting to look at.

  

  

Bramah 1857 in much smaller figures.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know if this "much smaller figures" is different from the regular small date type ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/8/2020 at 4:44 PM, secret santa said:

Does anyone know if this "much smaller figures" is different from the regular small date type ?

As nobody else has stepped forward to attempt an answer, I'll give my two penn'uth. 

Interesting question. Logically, I don't think there can be a small date type other than the one we know with the tall slim 7. But what intrigues me slightly from that list, is the price Spink's were asking as compared to the other 1857's, for a date type that really isn't that scarce even now, 125 years later. You'd think that in 1895, after 38 years, it would have been known about, as the differences are striking, even to the naked eye.

I've ordered a copy of Montagu's 1893 book (which was available as a modern paperback reprint for just £10.95 off Amazon), to see if he makes any mention of date types for the 1839 to 1860 period for pennies.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an original copy of Montagu's 1893 book, and I'm sorry to say that he makes not mention of date types for 1839 to 1860 copper pennies.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, InforaPenny said:

I have an original copy of Montagu's 1893 book, and I'm sorry to say that he makes not mention of date types for 1839 to 1860 copper pennies.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

Thanks.

Oh well, it'll still be interesting to look at.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having put the 1858 Large Rose Small Date up on my rare penny site, I then checked on the frequency of normal small date 1858 pennies and they seem equally as rare at first glance. London Coins has 9 large date types mis-attributed to small dates, with only 2 genuine (non-large rose) specimens in their archives.

I have now added this type to the website and would be pleased to hear of more examples (with pictures please).

24143787_1858P1517smalldateLCA1zoom.jpg.8ab8cc940eb5852ffa1030e8135e375c.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was exactly 6 months ago today that I started my pre 1860 Victorian copper penny collection, and as I've been obsessively scouring dealer's lists, auction sites and e bay on a daily or even twice daily basis since, I thought it might be quite informative to state scarcity of the different varieties as I've experienced them, out of interest.

I've now got almost all the main types, except for 1843 no colon after reg, 1849, 1856 OT and 1860/59.

This is how I've found the Bramah and Peck varieties availability:-

Bramah 2a - 1841 light curved marking to left of foot of 4, an 8 having apparently been commenced there - *one seen, correctly attributed, bought, dealer EF

Bramah 2c - 1841 the upper arm of last F is halfway down upstroke - two seen, one bought, e bay, EF, neither attributed, just offered as date type.

Bramah 3b - 1843 Last E is incomplete having no base stroke or upper serif to up-stroke (DFF) - none seen

Bramah 4b - 1844 as 3b - *one seen, dealer, correctly attributed, bought, F

Medusa 1847 - *one seen offered, not bought.

Bramah 10a/Peck 1494 - 1848/6 - *one seen, bought, dealer, VF . Same dealer had another touted as 1848/6, but magnification showed it clearly wasn't.

Bramah 15/Peck 1503 - 1853 OT last colon slightly nearer F >5 seen, one bought, dealer, EF. Commoner than I expected and only the one I bought was attributed as such, the remainder offered as date type.

1853 plain trident - 3 seen, one bought, dealer, bargain, EF. The other two sub fine on e bay. Not at all easy to get.

Bramah 17a/Peck 1507 - 1854 OT no colons - *one seen and bought, dealer, not quite fine.

Bramah 18a/Peck 1505 - 1854/3, none seen offered for sale. Several touted as 1854/6, but, as I suspected, not the real deal. Much rarer than indicated by either Peck or Bramah.

Bramah 23a - 1857 OT - no serif to the figure 7 in date - none seen, anywhere. Does this variety even exist?

Bramah 24a/Peck 1514 - 1857 PT - date in much smaller figures >5 seen, one bought VF, e bay.

Bramah 25c - 1858 - over/? - *one seen, bought, dealer F

Bramah 26a - 1858 first I is without serifs - 2 seen, one bought, dealer VF, unattributed.

Peck 1517 - 1858 date in smaller figures - *one seen, dealer, bought - doubles up as 8/6 

Peck 1520 - 1859 date in smaller figures - >5 seen, one bought, e bay, a/UNC

* one only seen offered in the 6 months from any source, before or since the purchase.

No attempt yet made to collect any pre 1857 varying date sizes, types, width. 

    

    

 

 

 

    

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Having put the 1858 Large Rose Small Date up on my rare penny site, I then checked on the frequency of normal small date 1858 pennies and they seem equally as rare at first glance. London Coins has 9 large date types mis-attributed to small dates, with only 2 genuine (non-large rose) specimens in their archives.

I have now added this type to the website and would be pleased to hear of more examples (with pictures please).

24143787_1858P1517smalldateLCA1zoom.jpg.8ab8cc940eb5852ffa1030e8135e375c.jpg

Just to clarify - do you also want small date 1858/6, or just plain small date 1858?

 

 

 

 

Edited by 1949threepence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small unaltered date please. It may turn our that 8 over 6 is also rare but I'll get around to that later.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Bramah 23a

 

20200913_144613.jpg

Thanks - how many have you seen, out of interest?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Thanks - how many have you seen, out of interest?

Just the one....

For full disclosure, once I checked it off my list, I didn't actively look for more....

However it did take me awhile to find this specimen...

Chingford or Alfnail might have more information regarding population...

Its existence proves that they do exist though...

Good Hunting.....

Edited by Bronze & Copper Collector
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

115561015_1857P1514PT2obvzoom.JPG.552a71e38173daf4f2a7fcc33002b787.JPG

I sold my only one not realising it was one !

Edited by secret santa
Correction.
  • Sad 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, secret santa said:

115561015_1857P1514PT2obvzoom.JPG.552a71e38173daf4f2a7fcc33002b787.JPG

I sold my only one not realising it was one !

!?!?!%&#@?$!?!?!?%&@!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 1857 Gouby Date Style C is seen paired with both OT and PT; I have both types in my collection. I'm pretty sure I have seen it paired with the Ornamental Trident less often, but I have not attempted any stats on this.

The most interesting one I have found is this one (Plain Trident Reverse), which has a 'repaired' numeral 8.

Just back from holiday last night, internet was not good whilst away. Can see I missed a few posts about Victorian Copper pennies, and think I may have a few additional comments to make when get time. 

 

1857 Gouby Date Style C on Plain Trident.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Richard,

I don't think the 1858 with smaller numerals (not 8/6) is particularly rare.

London Coins past auctions may not be the best place to assess this; a quick look at ebay reveals at least 2 on there at this moment.

I have sold quite a few 1858 smaller numerals over the years, and have examples from 5 slightly different smaller numeral obverse dies in my own collection.......including the large rose type with the flaw through the 5.

These can be seen below, noting some slightly different numeral locations in respect to border teeth, and the different repairs to the second 8. The large rose / small date being at the bottom of this set of images.

I'm sure that there will be more examples than your 20 limit for 'rarestpennies'.

Hope this helps,

Ian

 

1858 Dates W.W. Style E NamedSized.jpg

Edited by alfnail
Incorrect quote
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Ian, that's exactly the sort of information I was looking for. I will take the page off the menu so that it doesn't show whilst continuing to build up a library of examples on the hidden page.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/31/2020 at 4:39 PM, secret santa said:

Looking through auction archives, the genuine 1854 over 3 does seem to be a rare coin and, as such, I'm going to add it to my rare penny site. I'd be grateful for any photos from members please.

Hi Richard,

I did a screenshot of this one, sold on ebay in December 2009 by Michael Freeman. He added a couple of interesting comments, hope they are clear enough to read in my image.

Just checked your 'rarestpennies' site for the 1854/3's and I'm certain that your last Example, (Number 😎 is not an 1854/3 as you suspected. All examples I have ever seen are paired with a reverse which has a particular set of legend features;  amongst other things these include a slanted colon after BRITANNIAR which is higher than usual + the top dot clearly more distant from the R than usual. Example 8 on your site has a very different colon position.

  

Michael Freeman Sale.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone know why 8 came out as a smiley face in my above post!!??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Anyone know why 8 came out as a smiley face in my above post!!??

Some weird system fault.

Edited by 1949threepence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an 1854/3 which I bought on ebay for £7.50 in 2008.

I sold it to Andy Scott in 2014, and presume it was sold as part of his collection through Spinks, think 2015........but I don't know where it went.

I owned this piece before I had a digital microscope, so pictures of 4/3 in date are not great. However, if you stare at the overdate you can see the 3 appear from underneath, including the tip of the middle bar poking out at the right hand side of the inner part of the 4.........not often seen.

1854_3 Obverse.jpg

1854_3 Reverse.jpg

1854_3 Date Close Up.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/11/2020 at 6:09 PM, 1949threepence said:

Thanks.

Oh well, it'll still be interesting to look at.

 

I downloaded the parts I wanted off the web - via Treasurerealm.com. It's free.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×