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17 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Thanks Mike 🙂

The reason for me buying the Lot though was the one top left is the scarce one.

The REV is different than any other year and one sold last week in LCA for £2600+ premium. its now on Richards site as a pattern with NO Colon after REG ,the sheild ,leaves ,stem and other differences.

Not many about so was really happy to spot this one and was able to get rid of the others to help cover the cost.

1847-pattern-dnw-rev.jpg?w=564&h=558

Thought it better to show the picture of the reverse for anyone that might be interested as unrecorded.

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15 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

The absence of doubling anywhere else I think proves that it was a recut date purely to prolong die use.

Actually much of the legend is doubled too.

1162963082_1858P1517largedatelargeroseobv.thumb.JPG.46d4f5dd71147c6f39f0274027e502bb.JPG

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15 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Actually much of the legend is doubled too.

1162963082_1858P1517largedatelargeroseobv.thumb.JPG.46d4f5dd71147c6f39f0274027e502bb.JPG

Interesting - note that the GRA is doubled to the left, whereas the TIA is doubled below. Could a double strike cause that? And what about the portrait - is there any sign of doubling there?

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Absolutely no doubling of the queen's head but DEI is doubled together with the I of VICTORIA - so how exactly is this caused ? In the production of a new die ?

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6 hours ago, secret santa said:

Absolutely no doubling of the queen's head but DEI is doubled together with the I of VICTORIA - so how exactly is this caused ? In the production of a new die ?

Re-use of the die by repunching the worst affected letters / numbers?

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On 9/9/2018 at 8:09 AM, PWA 1967 said:

1847-pattern-dnw-rev.jpg?w=564&h=558

Thought it better to show the picture of the reverse for anyone that might be interested as unrecorded.

Well spotted Pete. 

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When I placed my newly won F98 alongside the existing F96 & F97's yesterday, it also prompted me to compare the dates on all three, and I immediately noticed something I'd not spotted before. That was the quite discernible difference in the positioning of the "9" between the F96 & F97. The F96 "9" is palpably closer to the 7, than on the F97.

Firstly I discounted the possibility of an optical illusion. It manifestly isn't that. Then I wondered if it was merely an oddity peculiar to my two coins. So I started looking at other F96/97 pictures together (of which there is no shortage), and noticed it was the same with all of them.

Given that the two die pairings are 8+J and 9+J, the essential differences are between obverses 8 and 9. But these are subtle, whereas the difference between the positioning of the 9's on the F96 and F97, hit you in the eye immediately. Notwithstanding they are both reverse J.

Might be an additional useful pointer in determining whether it's an F96 or F97.

Note: Freeman states the following - "(The date numerals of reverse J in 1879, when combined with obverse 9, usually appear thicker and in higher relief than in other years with other obverses)" . But that's not quite the same thing.

Here's my two side by side as a comparison, F96 on the left and F97 on the right:-

 

       

date size difference.jpg

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I think Mike and sorry if i am wrong that you are saying you may be able to tell the difference by the date width.

If so then maybe a look in Gouby will help you.

He has F96 as 12-5 teeth and F97 variety BP1879Bd also as 12-5 teeth.

The F97 the most common one has widths of  11,11-5 ,12, 12-5 teeth............So Yes F96 the type can be determined by the width of the date as is only 12-5 teeth.

Atleast it is one indicator.

The only other is F98 your new one  9 teeth 😉

Edited ..........Sorry reading again you mean the 9 being closer to the 7...May well be 🙂

Edited by PWA 1967

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28 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

I think Mike and sorry if i am wrong that you are saying you may be able to tell the difference by the date width.

If so then maybe a look in Gouby will help you.

He has F96 as 12-5 teeth and F97 variety BP1879Bd also as 12-5 teeth.

The F97 the most common one has widths of  11,11-5 ,12, 12-5 teeth............So Yes F96 the type can be determined by the width of the date as is only 12-5 teeth.

Atleast it is one indicator.

The only other is F98 your new one  9 teeth 😉

Yes, you're right Pete. Having looked at Gouby and one or two other examples, it would appear that the date widths can indeed vary between the two.

For one heady and not very cautious moment, I thought I might be onto something :ph34r: 

 

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Yes but as i have edited the post (at the same time) since Mike the 7 may well be closer to the 9 but still the same full width 🙂

Edited by PWA 1967

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6 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes but as i have edited the post (at the same time) since Mike the 7 may well be closer to the 9 but still the same full width 🙂

 

7 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes but as i have edited the post (at the same time) since Mike the 7 may well be closer to the 9 but still the same full width 🙂

I'm unsure. I did look through the various F96's & 97's in the LCA auctions over the years, and my principle seemed to bear out. But looking since at some other examples, it doesn't.

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Maybe if you want to find out just look at the dates from 7 to 9 rather than the full width.Gouby also mentions a different 9 i think.... as put the book away now its doing my head in 😉

Edited by PWA 1967
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5 hours ago, alfnail said:

Did I miss something on this penny, clearly NOT the rarer obverse 5 (as advertised), and with reverse scratches surely not worth anywhere near final bid:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-QUEEN-VICTORIA-GREAT-BRITAIN-BRONZE-PENNY-1D-COIN-/362439705234?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137

 

 

Still not a bad price as quite a decent coin. Maybe bidders get carried away in their quest to win the item. 

Might have been offered for less as a buy it now, or, paradoxically, attracted no bids at all if the opening figure had been £250, say. 

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The "detached at top knuckle index finger" variety perhaps?👈

I sometimes have to count the teeth to tell an F10 and F13 apart...….always annoys me when I have to resort to that!

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19 minutes ago, alfnail said:

The "detached at top knuckle index finger" variety perhaps?👈

I sometimes have to count the teeth to tell an F10 and F13 apart...….always annoys me when I have to resort to that!

Although isn't it the case, Ian, that the F10 has the I and/or T of BRITT slightly out of alignment? 

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F10 D in F D to Gap

F13 D in F : D  to tooth

 

F10 D in D : G to tooth

F13 D in D : G to Gap

Then the teeth as Ian mentions F10 143 &  F13 138

 

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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I often don't trust the 'colons pointing to whatever' method; in my experience you can get fooled by pictures taken at a slant........and many of them on ebay are low definition and/or not sufficiently in focus in the vital areas...…...at least with the teeth count you can miss (or add) the odd one by mistake and still be fairly sure...…..same goes for checking rose and bust area imo 

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Its not a colon method Ian its a letter ,if they both match up you can be pretty sure and then the teeth just confirm.

I am sure everyone uses different indicators and if you get the right result i dont suppose it matters 😊

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4 hours ago, alfnail said:

I often don't trust the 'colons pointing to whatever' method; in my experience you can get fooled by pictures taken at a slant........and many of them on ebay are low definition and/or not sufficiently in focus in the vital areas...…...at least with the teeth count you can miss (or add) the odd one by mistake and still be fairly sure...…..same goes for checking rose and bust area imo 

I strongly agree with the fact that pictures can distort the alignment of colons/lettering to teeth in borders !

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31 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Any thoughts on what's going on underneath the numeral 4 on this 1854 penny?

1854_4 over what.jpg

To me Ian it looks like a smaller sized 4  has been used, and then overstruck with the correct sized 4   ??

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Thanks Terry, another forum member has also contacted me and said 4/4, looks like plain tail 4 corrected to new crosslet 4

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