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2 hours ago, oldcopper said:

I don't think Peck really gave Bramah his due - perhaps subconscious rivalry?

In the Spink Numismatic Circular of 1968 is a letter from a reader announcing a new discovery - A over N in the 1717 dump farthing. He also had a letter from Peck verifying this. 

But when you go to Bramah you'll see it's one of his main 1717 varieties, with the comment that it is of similar rarity to the standard non-overstrike.

Peck died the same year (1968) so his faculties might have be lower than normal, but it seems that he wasn't or had never been aware of a major farthing variety in the only other 20th century book on copper coins.

Yes.

Page 46: "FARTHING 1717, 3a. CORRECTED ERROR. R - An N has been lightly cut where the first A is and shows plainly below the correct letter."

Described as rare.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes.

Page 46: "FARTHING 1717, 3a. CORRECTED ERROR. R - An N has been lightly cut where the first A is and shows plainly below the correct letter."

Described as rare.

 

 

Thanks! Did he also say it was of similar rarity to the standard? I haven't got Bramah to hand at the moment and maybe my mind's playing tricks on me.

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7 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

Thanks! Did he also say it was of similar rarity to the standard? I haven't got Bramah to hand at the moment and maybe my mind's playing tricks on me.

"Nos. 3 and 3a. are rare; No. 3b. very rare."

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2 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

"Nos. 3 and 3a. are rare; No. 3b. very rare."

Thanks - he puts them on the same level, though the overdate must be rarer to a certain degree.

Edited by oldcopper

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On 12/21/2022 at 10:29 PM, 1949threepence said:

Do we need a new book (Bramah) to raise awareness?

My own comments for what they're worth:

Many of Bramah's "varieties" such as the 2a (small curved marking to the left of the foot of the 4) could be regarded as trivial (and almost certainly non-intentional) alterations to a die and not truly therefore a recordable variety in Peck's eyes. The intentional overdates are listed by Peck. There are comparable examples in the bronze range that Michael Gouby lists but Freeman either ignored or mentioned in footnotes.

Secondly, once the baby boomer generation has passed away, the generation that never uses cash, paying for everything with cards or phones, won't be remotely interested in tiny differences in something they never use or see the point of.

And our coin collections will be worthless..............

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39 minutes ago, secret santa said:

My own comments for what they're worth:

Many of Bramah's "varieties" such as the 2a (small curved marking to the left of the foot of the 4) could be regarded as trivial (and almost certainly non-intentional) alterations to a die and not truly therefore a recordable variety in Peck's eyes. The intentional overdates are listed by Peck. There are comparable examples in the bronze range that Michael Gouby lists but Freeman either ignored or mentioned in footnotes.

Secondly, once the baby boomer generation has passed away, the generation that never uses cash, paying for everything with cards or phones, won't be remotely interested in tiny differences in something they never use or see the point of.

And our coin collections will be worthless..............

Hmmmm, I'm not sure to be honest. I can see the logic of what you're saying, but it's surely based on the premise that the generation which grew up with lsd in the days immediately prior to decimalisation, are the only ones who continue momentum with the hobby. However, numismatics is centuries old, so even if coins do become completely redundant we have to set against that, the fact that coins are big business internationally, and it's not just the baby boomer generation who collect - for example as you know, I'm an obsessive collector and born in the very latter years of generation X (so thankfully can't be labelled a millenial). Inevitably the momentum and interest in coins will be passed from generation to generation, and, just as now, there will always be some who take on the mantle of collectorship and dealership.

Redundancy of cash and no further use for coins, will take a very very long time internationally. Not all countries are like the UK with our seemingly deleterious and somewhat parochial attitude towards notes and coins. Much of which, I suspect, is motivated by a governmental and organised finance desire to have more control over ordinary folk. As long as cash is around, much of that control is totally impossible, notably for tax purposes, as it's beyond the all seeing eye of the state. Moreover, the fact that coins no longer exist may eventually have one of two effects, either a) it goes as you suggest, or b) it actually increases interest. Depends on collective psychology. 

From what I observe shopping in supermarkets, especially ASDA, most young people use actual cash. It's the "middle aged" who use cards, for convenience. Actually most older guys use cards as well - at the self serves, although older women tend to use cash via a checkout operator. I'm observant like that. Traders who insist on only accepting cards are actually shooting themselves in the foot, as they will be missing a portion of trade on a constant basis. Conversely, tradesmen (decorators etc) actively prefer cash payments, probably for tax avoidance purposes, but who cares given how our money is spent by the state. 

The current boom in coins isn't just driven by the baby boomer generation. It can't be. If it were, I suspect it would be much more "steady state" than what it is.  Many other age ranges are involved.           

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19 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I hope you're right - have a great Christmas.

You too Richard.

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11 hours ago, secret santa said:

Secondly, once the baby boomer generation has passed away, the generation that never uses cash, paying for everything with cards or phones, won't be remotely interested in tiny differences in something they never use or see the point of.

And our coin collections will be worthless..............

There will always be a generation of collectors - some people buy vinyl records because they prefer that format, some buy just because they collect them as items, and there will be an overlap of both; among the collectors there is intense interest in - for example - matrix numbers that indicate the first pressing. Also, postcard collectors are thriving though not many still send postcards.

I don't think we need to worry just yet.

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I'm on the fence on this topic as I have a near-14 year old son, and neither he nor his friends nor classmates for love or money can be stimulated to find interest in coins, and this is despite my best efforts over the last 10 years. Moreover I am a solo-practice physician in the US and even give away coins with some "pep talk" to young folk coming to the office - this to essentially NO effect despite picking buffalo nickels, new and old types, and the latest in commem quarter dollars. 

Many collectors, but especially dealers here crow about how many young numismatists they see - well while there are a COUPLE, there actually are relatively precious few and I mean few at ANY venues including small, medium and large shows and coin shops. This is true on up through young men and ladies in their early 30s as well. I have looked for signs of life (collecting or interest in coins) in younger generations and they are hard to find....

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An interesting and encouraging article here 

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1 hour ago, VickySilver said:

I'm on the fence on this topic as I have a near-14 year old son, and neither he nor his friends nor classmates for love or money can be stimulated to find interest in coins, and this is despite my best efforts over the last 10 years. Moreover I am a solo-practice physician in the US and even give away coins with some "pep talk" to young folk coming to the office - this to essentially NO effect despite picking buffalo nickels, new and old types, and the latest in commem quarter dollars. 

Many collectors, but especially dealers here crow about how many young numismatists they see - well while there are a COUPLE, there actually are relatively precious few and I mean few at ANY venues including small, medium and large shows and coin shops. This is true on up through young men and ladies in their early 30s as well. I have looked for signs of life (collecting or interest in coins) in younger generations and they are hard to find....

The spark of interest has to come from within. It cannot be imposed.

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Of course that is basically my slant - it doesn't by and large seem to be there, but can't help but try really - or at least that is my thought.

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The parallels between this topic and the world of old electronic gear and 'ham' radio are amazing.

If you put two pictures side by side, one showing the crowd at a coin fair, and the other showing the crowd at 

a radio rally,  I bet they would basically be identical - a very high average age....

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With regard to coin fairs, auctions and the like, another factor to be taken into consideration is how expensive the hobby can be. Older people tend to be the ones with the spare cash, hence you probably won't see many young people there as they just can't afford it. I wouldn't mind betting that was also the case 50 years ago.   

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Good point.

Unfortunately, the peddlers  of overpriced slabbed tat still manage to attract buyers....

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1 minute ago, blakeyboy said:

Good point.

Unfortunately, the peddlers  of overpriced slabbed tat still manage to attract buyers....

Don't even get me started on the total rip off that slabbing is.

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...that's also the reason I don't buy Velcro...

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Good point about fairs and money - but you should see the membership at "coin clubs" - NO younger people and this with free memberships! Locally BTW the Baltimore show or fair is entirely free to all with scads of "Young Numismatist" meetings, giveaways, etc. One time I dragged my son and they gave him loads of dollar coin commems, quarters, halves, books, stickers, bags, cell phone covers - brought back an entire bag of schlock.....

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There used to be a coin club in this town, which met once a month in a local church hall. But unfortunately they seem to have disbanded. 

Countrywide, there are some very well established and thriving coin clubs, but I've no idea as to their demographic breakdown. 

Essex numismatic society is one such club, and they hold their monthly meetings in my home town. But I never joined when I first became interested in coins. I just assumed I was too young and never enquired. I always imagined they'd have refused me. If I moved back down there now, I'd definitely join.  

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I do side with Groucho on this sometimes....a lot of it it stems from not feeling welcome at any club when young.

An erroneous view, sure, but easy to have when the world is big and disconcerting.....

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The other issue with coin clubs is that numismatics is a very, very wide topic. As a result. most of the time they'll be discussing areas you're not necessarily particularly interested in.

Although I do think you'd need to partake and present something yourself. Probably a lot of hard work and preparation would need to go into even just a 20 minute talk to other members. 

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My boys (9 and 12) are nuts about collecting Pokémon cards. They have no real interest in coins, but they fully grasp the collecting passion.  I suspect that passion is part of the human condition, affects a small minority more than most - and perhaps men more than women. 
 

I don’t think money evolving from gold to coins to cheques to credit cards to something else will have any impact at all.  I don’t think the association between money and what we collect is relevant - unless you collect the coins of your youth.  I collect mainly Victorian. 

I expect premium tangible artifacts from pre-digital times will only become more sought after as the world becomes evermore virtual -  and as networks evolve to better connect sellers and buyers. In this context (short term bubbles apart) coins are well placed for a host of reasons: scarcity, size, prettiness, durability, sophistication of the numismatic art. 
 

I also think numismatics will benefit from the inevitable end of woke historical revisionism, once it has run its course - as many societies go through cycles of embracing or rejecting their history.  (Perhaps numismatics are already beneficiaries as a refuge to that.) I don’t see woke revisionism lasting in my kids’ generation. They and their friends seem as mythed by it as me.  A renaissance may be due … 

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On 12/22/2022 at 1:20 PM, 1949threepence said:

Yes.

Page 46: "FARTHING 1717, 3a. CORRECTED ERROR. R - An N has been lightly cut where the first A is and shows plainly below the correct letter."

Described as rare.

 

 

If its dated 1717 it has to be rare anyway

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On 12/25/2022 at 10:18 AM, 1949threepence said:

With regard to coin fairs, auctions and the like, another factor to be taken into consideration is how expensive the hobby can be. Older people tend to be the ones with the spare cash, hence you probably won't see many young people there as they just can't afford it. I wouldn't mind betting that was also the case 50 years ago.   

Well young folks these days would be far better off concentrateing on putting a roof over their heads than obtaining a coin collection , so I see their point

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