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On 12/13/2022 at 11:25 PM, 1949threepence said:

So what motivates you to collect? 

I am a magpie my life has been spent collecting shiny things.  At the age of 8 I was going into mines and quarries collecting minerals, then another 15 years collecting fossils,then antiquities....then lastly coins ( I also had a wicked old grandfather who gave all his coins to a cousin)  so it's a love hate relationship.  Then when I had cancer the last time they helped me find something to do which has in turn turned into a collection to sell when I die for the charity.  Selling them has raised enough so far to keep things going.  I enjoy finding little things to amuse me.  I have always loathed money so there is an irony in collecting it for a purpose beyond my lifetime .  

Edited by DrLarry

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On 12/14/2022 at 1:30 AM, Menger said:

Why does rarity matter to collecting? 

“Rarity” (in the sense we are talking about) is not just “number in existence” (“supply”), but the combination of supply and demand.  In “rarity”, a common coin with a unique feature nobody cares about ranks below one with a scarce feature many care about.  (My daughter’s art is unique and nobody cares - it is not “a rarity”). 

Why do we care that other people care? Because that lends the thing an objective quality, as well as subjective. It becomes greater than our own predilections, critical as they are. 

Put differently, it adds value. That value may manifest in a financial sense, but to a collector it is greater than that. For want of a better word, it is “ spiritual”.  

That spirituality is what separates the collector from the investor, though we may be both. 

Amen.

give your daughter money for her art then it will be unique and valuable to her 

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On 12/14/2022 at 1:30 AM, Menger said:

Why does rarity matter to collecting? 

“Rarity” (in the sense we are talking about) is not just “number in existence” (“supply”), but the combination of supply and demand.  In “rarity”, a common coin with a unique feature nobody cares about ranks below one with a scarce feature many care about.  (My daughter’s art is unique and nobody cares - it is not “a rarity”). 

Why do we care that other people care? Because that lends the thing an objective quality, as well as subjective. It becomes greater than our own predilections, critical as they are. 

Put differently, it adds value. That value may manifest in a financial sense, but to a collector it is greater than that. For want of a better word, it is “ spiritual”.  

That spirituality is what separates the collector from the investor, though we may be both. 

Amen.

I am not so sure that rarity has a lot to do with  "solely or souly with supply and demand " .....  it is lot to do with marketing and fashion  ..hence why uncommon features are of little interest to many.  yet perhaps they possess a capacity to unlock some knowledge or history no one thought to look for or seek. I am sure Picasso was a cheap buy at some point or a Monet 

Edited by DrLarry

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48 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

I am a magpie my life has been spent collecting shiny things; at the age of 8 I was going into mines and quarries collecting minerals, then another 15 years collecting fossils,then antiquities....then coins ( I also had a wicked old grandfather who gave all his coins to a cousin)  so it's a love hate relationship.  Then when I had cancer the last time they helped me find something to do which has in turn turned into a collection to sell when I die for the charity.  Selling them has raised enough so far to keep things going.  I enjoy finding little things to amuse me.  I have already loathed money so there is an irony in collecting it for a purpose beyond my lifetime .  

oh yes I am still alive (I think) 

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On 12/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, mrbadexample said:

That's a part of collecting I don't get. I don't have the desire to replace rarity with fakes / replicas or whatnot. You'd spend your money and still not have a 1933 penny. :wacko:

No, but I'm never going to have a genuine 1933; however, if I'm collecting a complete date run of that series, a convincing fake carefully crafted from a genuine penny would fill a gap.

 

On 12/14/2022 at 7:17 PM, secret santa said:

Done !

1933097033_1933altereddaterevedited-Copy(2).jpg.70f0e997183df74c578495428e17113e.jpg

Ah. I'm happy to offer £50 for that one! I was thinking of one in VF or better :lol:

 

4 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

I am not so sure that rarity has a lot to do with the "solely or souly with supply and demand " .....  it is lot to do with marketing and fashion  ..hence why uncommon features are of little interest to many.  yet perhaps they possess a capacity to unlock some knowledge or history no one thought to look for or seek. I am sure Picasso was a cheap buy at some point or a Monet 

I think there's 3 factors:

1. objective i.e. absolute number minted

2. being recognisable - which explains why H & KN pennies (for example) are more in demand than minor varieties of bun pennies

3. popularity, which as you say is a product of marketing to some extent; either way coins can come into fashion a drop out again.

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29 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

No, but I'm never going to have a genuine 1933; however, if I'm collecting a complete date run of that series, a convincing fake carefully crafted from a genuine penny would fill a gap.

 

Ah. I'm happy to offer £50 for that one! I was thinking of one in VF or better :lol:

 

I think there's 3 factors:

1. objective i.e. absolute number minted

2. being recognisable - which explains why H & KN pennies (for example) are more in demand than minor varieties of bun pennies

3. popularity, which as you say is a product of marketing to some extent; either way coins can come into fashion a drop out again.

yes very true fashions come and go 

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On 12/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, mrbadexample said:

That's a part of collecting I don't get. I don't have the desire to replace rarity with fakes / replicas or whatnot. You'd spend your money and still not have a 1933 penny. :wacko:

yet there are many fakes that get much better prices than the real thing.  Contemporary  Georgian counterfeits coppers  in the US market for example the uglier the fake the higher the price.   I suppose it is a big part of their history so they favour them ....  I love them myself and have far too many than any man needs LOL 

Edited by DrLarry

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18 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

No, but I'm never going to have a genuine 1933; however, if I'm collecting a complete date run of that series, a convincing fake carefully crafted from a genuine penny would fill a gap.

 

Ah. I'm happy to offer £50 for that one! I was thinking of one in VF or better :lol:

 

 

Ingram is offering one with a "cleverly altered date" (looks clumsy and botched to me), for an overpriced £325 - link 

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1 hour ago, DrLarry said:

am not so sure that rarity has a lot to do with  "solely or souly with supply and demand " .....  it is lot to do with marketing and fashion  ..hence why uncommon features are of little interest to many.  yet perhaps they possess a capacity to unlock some knowledge or history no one thought to look for or seek. I am sure Picasso was a cheap buy at some point or a Monet 

Nobody said “solely”, but “marketing” precisely seeks to affect “demand” (how much people want something).  

Marketing may be relevant to add luster at the margin of the odd high end rarity from Heritage - or new release from the RM - but the demand aspect of rarity for most coins is established by a more organic, bottom up process (indeed, like “fashion”).  

Shiny, historically interesting objects are all for the good - but rarity connotes something else.  

Yes - that is the point - Picasso and Monet may once have been unique (little “supply”), but they were not rarities (and, closely related, had little economic value) until they had matching “demand”.  Just like my daughter’s art … 

Edited by Menger

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55 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

No, but I'm never going to have a genuine 1933; however, if I'm collecting a complete date run of that series, a convincing fake carefully crafted from a genuine penny would fill a gap.

I don't leave a gap. If I get that lucky then I'm prepared to move everything along one. :lol:

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Very popular are the quasi fake Taylor restrikes. 

When the SOHO Mint was closed in 1848, and whether by default or design, Birmingham die sinker W.J.Taylor purchased some genuine SOHO coin dies along with scrap metal, and proceeded to mint his own. He was relatively successful at it, as he had a number of orders, and many of these re-strikes are still available today. Although often lightly spotted because the dies were rusted, some are actually very attractive looking, such as the 1806 and 1807 (R97 and R98) restrike pennies. Supposedly bronzed copper, the bronzing seems a bit thin, and the result is actually a very pleasing dark

 

golden tone in many cases.        

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Very popular are the quasi fake Taylor restrikes. 

When the SOHO Mint was closed in 1848, and whether by default or design, Birmingham die sinker W.J.Taylor purchased some genuine SOHO coin dies along with scrap metal, and proceeded to mint his own. He was relatively successful at it, as he had a number of orders, and many of these re-strikes are still available today. Although often lightly spotted because the dies were rusted, some are actually very attractive looking, such as the 1806 and 1807 (R97 and R98) restrike pennies. Supposedly bronzed copper, the bronzing seems a bit thin, and the result is actually a very pleasing dark

 

golden tone in many cases.        

In my collecting sphere, the same could be said for the various proof groats (from 1837, 1853, 1857 and 1862)  with anachronistic obverses from later decades.  They are “fakes” in a sense, but possibly more valuable than the real McCoy because of their added rarity.  On the other hand, high prices for the Maundy masquerading as key date 3d are a case of the market having imperfect knowledge - which I expect will correct. 

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I think the dividing line between collectable and not in restrikes or non-circulating issues are whether original dies were used. Modern ones could be made in China or wherever and cast copies are just that, but Taylor for example actually had the Soho dies, some of which were unfinished when he acquired them in the sale following closure in 1848. We are talking about things that weren't intended for circulation or to deceive, that were struck in small numbers and are part of numismatic history. At no point have they been put forward misleadingly as legal tender.

The research has been done and the market has decided that they are collectable. One day, someone will plough through and document the current Chinese output and they too will have their enthusiasts. Probably just a reminder that there is no right or wrong way to collect, rather a reasonable or not price to pay for something. 

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On 12/14/2022 at 11:58 PM, 1949threepence said:

 

Once in your ownership, they will never cause you any hassle, annoyance or grief and can only ever enhance your relaxed moments. 

Unlike women!

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51 minutes ago, copper123 said:

Unlike women!

I have known women that have enhanced my relaxed moments

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23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Ingram is offering one with a "cleverly altered date" (looks clumsy and botched to me), for an overpriced £325 - link 

 

Yes, if that was done much better, and was cheaper - I'd be up for it!

 

23 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

I don't leave a gap. If I get that lucky then I'm prepared to move everything along one. :lol:

 

It's true - I haven't left a gap, and if I DID buy a clever fake, I'd have to move everything along one...

 

22 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Very popular are the quasi fake Taylor restrikes. 

When the SOHO Mint was closed in 1848, and whether by default or design, Birmingham die sinker W.J.Taylor purchased some genuine SOHO coin dies along with scrap metal, and proceeded to mint his own. He was relatively successful at it, as he had a number of orders, and many of these re-strikes are still available today. Although often lightly spotted because the dies were rusted, some are actually very attractive looking, such as the 1806 and 1807 (R97 and R98) restrike pennies. Supposedly bronzed copper, the bronzing seems a bit thin, and the result is actually a very pleasing dark

 

golden tone in many cases.        

 

I wouldn't class a Taylor restrike as a fake - they're in a class of their own. As you and Rob say, he used original dies, warts and all, and sometimes in impossible pairings. It's almost as if the ghost of Boulton had come back to life.

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39 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

 

Yes, if that was done much better, and was cheaper - I'd be up for it!

 

 

It's true - I haven't left a gap, and if I DID buy a clever fake, I'd have to move everything along one...

 

 

I wouldn't class a Taylor restrike as a fake - they're in a class of their own. As you and Rob say, he used original dies, warts and all, and sometimes in impossible pairings. It's almost as if the ghost of Boulton had come back to life.

Yes, that's a really good way of putting it. I actually very much like them, and already have an R96 & R98. Looking for an R97, and also, eventually,  a few of the 1797 restrikes. 

Of course the first ones weren't produced until about 1862 (according to Peck), and continued for many years henceforth. So much of Taylor's work could never have been presented as fake currency anyway, as that type would already have been demonetised. Even so, as Rob says, there was never any intention to deceive, and everything was done "up front" as it were. 

Boulton had a great imagination, and some of his productions, especially around 1805, are truly unique.  

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Ah, nicely put and couldn't agree more. I pulled out some very nice coins that I use as reference and then just had a look and answer a few questions I had come up with. Looked at two, and then had a look at a broader range. Very enjoyable and that bit cost nought.

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On 12/16/2022 at 10:05 PM, Peckris 2 said:

I wouldn't class a Taylor restrike as a fake - they're in a class of their own. As you and Rob say, he used original dies, warts and all, and sometimes in impossible pairings. It's almost as if the ghost of Boulton had come back to life.

I've tried to capture as many versions as I could:

https://headsntails14.wordpress.com/george-iii-patterns-restrikes/#top

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A recent purchase and dont see many like most Copper varieties now in a decent grade ,Bramah 26a with the missing serifs on the I of Britanniar.

Happy Christmas and all the best.

Pete.

 

319849369_535890184913405_7630738455180290642_n.jpg

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Hi Pete, I saw that one and was a little tempted but decided that, as I already have 2, I would give it a miss.

You are right that it is a type that was seen more often 10 to 15 years ago than it is nowadays.

I ought to do a count of the Bramah 26a's from my 5 year study period covering that period; hopefully will get round to it one day, but haven't done too much work on 1858's yet as just so many coins and loads of varieties!  

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1 hour ago, alfnail said:

Hi Pete, I saw that one and was a little tempted but decided that, as I already have 2, I would give it a miss.

You are right that it is a type that was seen more often 10 to 15 years ago than it is nowadays.

I ought to do a count of the Bramah 26a's from my 5 year study period covering that period; hopefully will get round to it one day, but haven't done too much work on 1858's yet as just so many coins and loads of varieties!  

Ian, that would be really interesting and something to look forward to. 

Obviously the Bramah 26a is very much an unsung scarcity among pre 1860 Victorian pennies. I got mine as an unattributed date only specimen. Only seen one since, but don't go looking every day, so there will have been quite a few more no doubt, including Pete's.

Don't think too many dealers know about the variety, or don't bother looking for it. 

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MOST of the Copper varieties can be found quite easily in lower grades if your prepared to look and very rarely attributed.

However finding them in HIGH grade is were it becomes more difficult and some harder than others ,such as the 1854 No (or weak) Colons.

So the 1858 26a plenty of them and certainly not rare or hard to find , but how many do you see better than EF 😀

Like this 1854 DOT i bought at the weekend also ,plenty in low grade.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155307972243

Edited by PWA 1967

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Interesting to note that a number of the sub varieties identified by Bramah as rare, were never mentioned by Peck. For example the 2a, 2c, 3b, 4a, distinctions between 10b & 10c, 23a, 25c & 26a.

Bramah's book was only ever (as far as I can see) subject to one printing. Consequently, after nearly a century (copyright 1929), remaining often tatty copies are now, understandably, very scarce and very costly. Hence many collectors and dealers are unaware of these rare varieties. Some are especially rare in the higher grades, but seldome attrbuted. Cope and Rayner looked at grade rarity comparisons in their 1975 book, but apart from the 1854/3 - which also, incidentally, is extremely rare in EF and above, according to them - no mention is made of the other Bramah sub varieties referred to above.

The 2a seems to be more widely known about than the rest for whatever reason. Bramah type 17a (the 1854 no colons) was taken forward by Peck, but again, only seldom attributed.  

Do we need a new book to raise awareness? - naturally this time with high end photography, including close ups, available

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13 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Interesting to note that a number of the sub varieties identified by Bramah as rare, were never mentioned by Peck. For example the 2a, 2c, 3b, 4a, distinctions between 10b & 10c, 23a, 25c & 26a.

Bramah's book was only ever (as far as I can see) subject to one printing. Consequently, after nearly a century (copyright 1929), remaining often tatty copies are now, understandably, very scarce and very costly. Hence many collectors and dealers are unaware of these rare varieties. Some are especially rare in the higher grades, but seldome attrbuted. Cope and Rayner looked at grade rarity comparisons in their 1975 book, but apart from the 1854/3 - which also, incidentally, is extremely rare in EF and above, according to them - no mention is made of the other Bramah sub varieties referred to above.

The 2a seems to be more widely known about than the rest for whatever reason. Bramah type 17a (the 1854 no colons) was taken forward by Peck, but again, only seldom attributed.  

Do we need a new book to raise awareness? - naturally this time with high end photography, including close ups, available

I don't think Peck really gave Bramah his due - perhaps subconscious rivalry?

In the Spink Numismatic Circular of 1968 is a letter from a reader announcing a new discovery - A over N in the 1717 dump farthing. He also had a letter from Peck verifying this. 

But when you go to Bramah you'll see it's one of his main 1717 varieties, with the comment that it is of similar rarity to the standard non-overstrike.

Peck died the same year (1968) so his faculties might have be lower than normal, but it seems that he wasn't or had never been aware of a major farthing variety in the only other 20th century book on copper coins.

Edited by oldcopper
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