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4 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

Nicholson I checked because I know where to find it (although he didn't seem to collect much rang tang :ph34r:). Never heard of Samuel - can I view that collection somewhere?

And thanks. :)

Samuel was in Spink sale 109 (1995) which pre-dates any internet archives. Nicholson bought a few lots there.

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14 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Thanks for the heads up, Richard. Been after that book for a long time. Just won it for £21 - not a bad price for something as rare as hen's teeth.

Well done Mike; Michael himself also bid for it as he has no copies left for himself !

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38 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Well done Mike; Michael himself also bid for it as he has no copies left for himself !

Thanks Richard.

Well you could knock me down with a feather. I'm amazed that Michael was bidding for his own book. Being the author you'd have thought he would have had a few spare copies squirreled away somewhere for future reference. Plus he must surely still have the original manuscript. Maybe he could arrange for a limited print run to accommodate collector/dealer demand - and himself ! 

Indicative of just how rare it's become.  

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Yes, Michael just mailed me to say that the 2 previous sales had realised £80 and nearly £90 !!!!

You got a bargain.

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Yes, Michael just mailed me to say that the 2 previous sales had realised £80 and nearly £90 !!!!

You got a bargain.

A definite bargain. Very pleased.

Just made another interesting ish purchase. An 1853 PT penny (very much the rarer of the two) but with an italic 5, which also seem scarce within an already scarce variety. Whereas with the OT 1853, the italic and plain 5 seem equally as common. Only fine but problem free. 

Of course, I may be wrong. But this is based on personal observation from a limited population seen. All the other PT 1853's I've seen, have been plain 5. 

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Well spotted Mike.

A variety discussed before on the forum, and Italic 5 is much rarer than the Plain 5 on the 1853PT. Please see count from my 5 year ebay study. Hope it makes sense! 

Penny Acquisition of the week - British Coin Related Discussions & Enquiries - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

1853 Penny Analysis (Count)                  
                     
    OT OT OT   PT PT PT    
Year Can't See Trident Closer DEF: DEF_: Can't see colon   Style A Style C Not sure of 5   Totals
    (Peck 1503)                
                     
1 26 14 290 26   0 6 0   362
2 44 9 310 30   4 11 2   410
3 41 12 316 20   1 8 4   402
4 32 15 381 20   2 8 1   459
5 54 11 421 29   2 17 2   536
                     
Totals 197 61 1718 125   9 50 9   2169
                     
% CAN See Trident   3.09% 87.12% 6.34%   0.46% 2.54% 0.46%    
                     
Same seller re-lists (same pictures) I have tried to exclude from statistics by 'eye' scanning pictures in subsequent weeks. However, figures will include coins re-listed in Year 1 with different pictures from a subsequent seller e.g. Peck 1503 Year 1 is given as 14, but I can see two of these coins have been subsequently listed by different sellers (so actually 12 coins). I have taken this approach to be consistent across all boxes in the spreadsheet as I cannot possibly examine hundreds of coins in detail for their unique markings

 

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2 hours ago, alfnail said:

Well spotted Mike.

A variety discussed before on the forum, and Italic 5 is much rarer than the Plain 5 on the 1853PT. Please see count from my 5 year ebay study. Hope it makes sense! 

Penny Acquisition of the week - British Coin Related Discussions & Enquiries - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

1853 Penny Analysis (Count)                  
                     
    OT OT OT   PT PT PT    
Year Can't See Trident Closer DEF: DEF_: Can't see colon   Style A Style C Not sure of 5   Totals
    (Peck 1503)                
                     
1 26 14 290 26   0 6 0   362
2 44 9 310 30   4 11 2   410
3 41 12 316 20   1 8 4   402
4 32 15 381 20   2 8 1   459
5 54 11 421 29   2 17 2   536
                     
Totals 197 61 1718 125   9 50 9   2169
                     
% CAN See Trident   3.09% 87.12% 6.34%   0.46% 2.54% 0.46%    
                     
Same seller re-lists (same pictures) I have tried to exclude from statistics by 'eye' scanning pictures in subsequent weeks. However, figures will include coins re-listed in Year 1 with different pictures from a subsequent seller e.g. Peck 1503 Year 1 is given as 14, but I can see two of these coins have been subsequently listed by different sellers (so actually 12 coins). I have taken this approach to be consistent across all boxes in the spreadsheet as I cannot possibly examine hundreds of coins in detail for their unique markings

 

Ian, thanks for those really interesting stats. Indeed, the additional embedded rarity of the PT italic 5 is obvious from those figures. Also thanks for the link back to the earlier discussion of the topic.  

Anyway it's here - any lingering doubts I had about the 5 were dispelled when I noticed there was indeed a dot between the I and A of GRATIA. For such a scarcity I think £68 was a reasonable price, Just slightly surprised John (Stephen) Jerrams didn't spot it himself.

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Glad to help Mike. I don't think there is yet same level of interest in sub varieties on the Copper Victorian pennies. If it had been a Bronze 1897 dot, 1875 Canon Ball, or even an 1870 Y dot then it's always a different matter.................one day!! 

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Alfnail,  I'm so impressed with at table of figures- that's how to actually find out what to look out for!

That's a lot of work condensed down.

Nice one.

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Thanks Blake, glad to help, I like numbers!

Some of these rarer varieties will not be so easy to find on ebay now as it was 10 to 15 years ago. I'm sure they will have become disproportionately tucked away in collections as more people became aware they existed. Same could be said, for example, of the 1858 large roses. Would be interesting to do another 5 year study now........but I'm not offering!!🤪

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8 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Alfnail,  I'm so impressed with at table of figures- that's how to actually find out what to look out for!

That's a lot of work condensed down.

Nice one.

100% agreed. Quantitative and comparative stats are incredibly useful.

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On 1/31/2021 at 2:56 PM, secret santa said:

Yes, Michael just mailed me to say that the 2 previous sales had realised £80 and nearly £90 !!!!

You got a bargain.

Received today. Apart from very slight foxing to the cover page, it's immaculate. Doesn't look like it's ever been read.

Interesting to see Michael's opinion on rarity plus the remarkably low 1986 prices (even taking account of inflation).

A great buy. 

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On 1/30/2021 at 7:07 PM, 1949threepence said:

Thanks for the heads up, Richard. Been after that book for a long time. Just won it for £21 - not a bad price for something as rare as hen's teeth.

Never once seen a copy on Amazon or e bay.  

Wow. Are we talking about the A4 blue volume divided into 3 sections horizontally? If so, I'll have to keep hold of mine!

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8 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Wow. Are we talking about the A4 blue volume divided into 3 sections horizontally? If so, I'll have to keep hold of mine!

That's the fella we're talking about.

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15 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

That's the fella we're talking about.

That was the first book to specifically include the 1946 ONE' PENNY as a specific variety (i.e. more than a footnote) with a rarity and a value. He rated it scarcer than the 1926ME.

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Last year I bought a couple of mixed lots of pennies (ex-Hiram Brown) in DNW's auctions. On first glance, there were lots of middle to high grade common varieties that made me wonder why Hiram had accumulated them but, on further examination, many of them had little quirks that made them interesting and, obviously to Hiram, collectable.

Only yesterday I noticed that a nice 1863 penny had a small die clash near her head which looks rather like an extra tuft of hair (see below).

If other Forum members bought similar mixed lots, there may be interesting quirks among your coins.

1473082261_1863F421Aobvzoom.JPG.d4f4e0456d2c22acf14f912456a571da.JPG

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Hi Richard, I bought one of Hiram's group lots, mainly because it had an F38.

I didn't buy the lot with a view to keeping the F38, but have finished up keeping two other lots from the same group. One I think is an 1860 Gouby V variation, and the other is an 1874Le date width, but now with the H colliding with the linear circle.

  

1860V G+d) Obverse.jpg

1874Le H touches LC.jpg

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Yes, definitely a V with the incuse lines. It's a pity that Hiram didn't catalogue his coins in detail (I assume he didn't) as I'm sure that DNW could have made so much more from the sale(s).

It would have paid them to get someone with a knowledge of pennies to go through them.

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I too bought a couple of lots, and found a nice selection of oddities; I am sure Hiram must have been aware of these. Remarkable that one bulk lot had not just one but two D* obverse 1860 pennies, and they do seem to remain rare. I did show a selection here.

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/12193-penny-acquisition-of-the-week/?page=52

I agree that proper cataloguing could have made a substantial difference financially, though I’m not complaining.

Jerry

 

 

 

 

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Another lot had a halfpenny with only the leaves on Victoria's head "double struck".

8192403_1874HF31811Jdbleleaveszoom.jpg.9c95ab0296117ae4d474b9f79ccc3988.jpg

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Just going through a large pile of old pennies, with a view to scrap, and came across this one. I'm not good on post-Victorian pennies but thought it a little strange. It's almost black, similar to colour of Edward Farthings, although less black around rim (as if worn off) as can be seen.

I gave it a gentle wash in distilled water and dried with tissue paper, but none of black colour came off as far as I could see. The bag of coins was given to me by an old school friend who had them since the early 70's; I'm sure that he wouldn't have done anything to this coin to make it  black as he would have had no interest. I know that there is an 1946 type sold as 'artificially darkened by the mint' but this seems a lot darker to me. Any thoughts please   

1935 Black Coin.jpg

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2 hours ago, alfnail said:

Just going through a large pile of old pennies, with a view to scrap, and came across this one. I'm not good on post-Victorian pennies but thought it a little strange. It's almost black, similar to colour of Edward Farthings, although less black around rim (as if worn off) as can be seen.

I gave it a gentle wash in distilled water and dried with tissue paper, but none of black colour came off as far as I could see. The bag of coins was given to me by an old school friend who had them since the early 70's; I'm sure that he wouldn't have done anything to this coin to make it  black as he would have had no interest. I know that there is an 1946 type sold as 'artificially darkened by the mint' but this seems a lot darker to me. Any thoughts please   

1935 Black Coin.jpg

Ian, Peck noted that the majority of 1935 pennies were issued artificially toned (mint darkened) (EC), and that only a minority of those issued were untoned (with the usual mint lustre) (VR) (page 505). Freeman states at page 17 of his 1985 book: "The dark finish given to pennies from 1944-46 before issue, was achieved, in a similar way, by the use of 'hypo', as was that on pennies of 1934 and some of 1935". Alexander in the August 1977 edition of Coin Monthly (page 67) says of the 1935 penny, that "the great majority were issued mint darkened".

Personally, I think Freeman is closest. Whilst there is no dispute that 1934 pennies were all issued mint darkened, normal lustred 1935 pennies seem to be commonplace. This is mine, a bog standard EF with residual lustre specimen, and not in my opinion, ever mint darkened -

 

penny 1935 rev.jpg

penny 1935 obv.jpg

Edited by 1949threepence

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21 hours ago, alfnail said:

Maybe a nice little earner for you Richard!!

It would leave bulk lots bereft of any "finds". :(

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