Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, alfnail said:

Here's an 1854/3 which I bought on ebay for £7.50 in 2008.

I sold it to Andy Scott in 2014, and presume it was sold as part of his collection through Spinks, think 2015........but I don't know where it went.

I owned this piece before I had a digital microscope, so pictures of 4/3 in date are not great. However, if you stare at the overdate you can see the 3 appear from underneath, including the tip of the middle bar poking out at the right hand side of the inner part of the 4.........not often seen.

1854_3 Obverse.jpg

1854_3 Reverse.jpg

1854_3 Date Close Up.jpg

Thanks Ian.

These 4/3's are doubly difficult to identify as most don't have enough of a close up date shot to tell one way or the other, and very few are actually attributed (correctly or otherwise) as such anyway.  

With that said, the sloping colon and the worn hair are clearly helpful pointers.

 

 

Edited by 1949threepence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, you guys are pushing me to go back and look at my copper pennies with magnification. If I find anything, I will report. Heretofore I had just pretty much left it to the 1860/59 and the 1858/2-3.....Excellent. I will report back with any findings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(moved post to correct forum user)

Edited by leffertsamba
used wrong forum login by mistake. will repost under atlas numismatics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No idea on the coin @AtlasNumismaticshowever I must say you have some cracking coins but generally find you way over priced on your British stuff, in the main, unfortunately for me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't usually have anything of interest to show but I was quite pleased to discover this, amongst some eBay tat, at the weekend.

WP_20200915_11_57_43_Pro_copy_1920x1080.jpg

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AtlasNumismatics said:

Hi Everyone,
We just received this piece back from PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/40396601. We can't find the overdate listed anywhere and wanted to see if any specialists in British copper knew of such an overdate or if it might be a die flaw instead? I have attached close-ups of the date.
rpx3cqy6bavu.jpg
2phcvj7289eg.jpg

This is similar in many respects, however I consider it to be a 5/5...

I'm not sure that yours isn't a 5/5 too...

That being said, I'll defer to John and Ian for a more definitive response....

20200916_154954.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The numerals on the atlas example are in the correct position for it to be a 5/5, although the top of the 2nd 5 looks straighter than I have seen before. 

I'm still thinking that it is most likely a 5/5.

I have owned 8 examples of the 5/5 over the years and they all have the same obverse / reverse legend features.

Atlas, suggest you check the obverse to see if yours has the small protrusions I have highlighted on the OR of VICTORIA, and then check the reverse (which should be a Plain Trident) to see if the NN of BRITANNIAR looks like the picture below.

  

OR Predecimal.jpg

NN Pred.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, alfnail said:

The numerals on the atlas example are in the correct position for it to be a 5/5, although the top of the 2nd 5 looks straighter than I have seen before. 

I'm still thinking that it is most likely a 5/5.

I have owned 8 examples of the 5/5 over the years and they all have the same obverse / reverse legend features.

Atlas, suggest you check the obverse to see if yours has the small protrusions I have highlighted on the OR of VICTORIA, and then check the reverse (which should be a Plain Trident) to see if the NN of BRITANNIAR looks like the picture below.

  

I can understand a 4 being in the graders mind as the initial thought would be the remains of the crosslet to the right of the 5 and the seemingly diagonal remains within the loop of the 5.

However the diagonal has a distinct curvature, giving rise to a rounded numeral, and there are no remaining signs of the upright,  I would think the remains of it would be obvious being the larger and stronger part of a 4.

I looked at the possibility of a 3, Mangahas records an occurrence of a 5 over 3 in Halfpennies, looking at the coin it is easy to image a 3, and the CP1853 has several different variations in positioning, size and re cutting, but the 3  has a rounded top, the top of the numeral is very straight and rises from left to right, it also has a definable dip in the middle. but would be worth overlaying the different types to see if there is a fit.

Personally I would still go for a 5 over 5, again there are several variations in both positioning,  formation and re cutting of the 5's in 55, especially when taking the observations above into account,.

Would be worth overlaying both 3 and 5 to find a conclusive answer.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a response to this query on the PCGS forum. I also think it has the appearances of 5 over 5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, alfnail said:

The numerals on the atlas example are in the correct position for it to be a 5/5, although the top of the 2nd 5 looks straighter than I have seen before. 

I'm still thinking that it is most likely a 5/5.

I have owned 8 examples of the 5/5 over the years and they all have the same obverse / reverse legend features.

Atlas, suggest you check the obverse to see if yours has the small protrusions I have highlighted on the OR of VICTORIA, and then check the reverse (which should be a Plain Trident) to see if the NN of BRITANNIAR looks like the picture below.

  

OR Predecimal.jpg

NN Pred.jpg

Thank you very much @alfnail and everyone else for your useful comments. These die characteristics match perfectly and we will assume it is a degraded 5/5 punch and submit for reholder at PCGS.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Zo Arms said:

I don't usually have anything of interest to show but I was quite pleased to discover this, amongst some eBay tat, at the weekend.

WP_20200915_11_57_43_Pro_copy_1920x1080.jpg

Thanks for showing this . It reminded me that I didn't have one , so I went on ebay to see what was on offer .Found one partially attributed with 10 mins to go with a 99p top bid .A gap filled for the princely sum of £1.04 lol

 

s-l1600.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mick1271 said:

Thanks for showing this . It reminded me that I didn't have one , so I went on ebay to see what was on offer .Found one partially attributed with 10 mins to go with a 99p top bid .A gap filled for the princely sum of £1.04 lol

 

s-l1600.jpg

I'm pleased that I prompted you. And a bargain too.

You'll be searching for a Gouby X next then?😎

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Zo Arms said:

I'm pleased that I prompted you. And a bargain too.

You'll be searching for a Gouby X next then?😎

You'll be offering one for sale next then? :lol:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

You'll be offering one for sale next then? :lol:

eBay is full of surprises if you look.😎

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Zo Arms said:

I'm pleased that I prompted you. And a bargain too.

You'll be searching for a Gouby X next then?😎

I already have a Gouby x . It is a horrible looking coin though. It has been polished to death , but at least I have one .....and it was cheap .

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, mick1271 said:

I already have a Gouby x . It is a horrible looking coin though. It has been polished to death , but at least I have one .....and it was cheap .

 

Not as scarce as first thought. R17. Now R7 I believe as more turn up. I've boosted the population to the tune of 4. All lower grade though.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

You'll be offering one for sale next then? :lol:

He sold me one some time ago.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Zo Arms said:

Not as scarce as first thought. R17. Now R7 I believe as more turn up. I've boosted the population to the tune of 4. All lower grade though.

I know someone on here managed to find one in about VF - EF, a couple or so years ago. Don't know precisely when or who though, nor on what thread. Probably "penny acquisition of the week". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I know someone on here managed to find one in about VF - EF, a couple or so years ago. Don't know precisely when or who though, nor on what thread. Probably "penny acquisition of the week". 

I think someone has found one recently. Probably Pete. I do remember that it was a beauty. You'd not need another!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Zo Arms said:
3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I know someone on here managed to find one in about VF - EF, a couple or so years ago. Don't know precisely when or who though, nor on what thread. Probably "penny acquisition of the week". 

I think someone has found one recently. Probably Pete. I do remember that it was a beauty. You'd not need another!

Jerry showed us a VF he found recently.  I also found one about VF, I posted on here with   !! A BLOODY GREAT FILLED HOLE IN IT !!  :angry:

Edited by terrysoldpennies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Zo Arms said:

I think someone has found one recently. Probably Pete. I do remember that it was a beauty. You'd not need another!

It was Michael-Roo.

Edited by Peckris 2
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/8/2020 at 4:44 PM, secret santa said:

Does anyone know if this "much smaller figures" is different from the regular small date type ?

 

On 9/9/2020 at 10:48 PM, 1949threepence said:

As nobody else has stepped forward to attempt an answer, I'll give my two penn'uth. 

Interesting question. Logically, I don't think there can be a small date type other than the one we know with the tall slim 7. But what intrigues me slightly from that list, is the price Spink's were asking as compared to the other 1857's, for a date type that really isn't that scarce even now, 125 years later. You'd think that in 1895, after 38 years, it would have been known about, as the differences are striking, even to the naked eye.

I've ordered a copy of Montagu's 1893 book (which was available as a modern paperback reprint for just £10.95 off Amazon), to see if he makes any mention of date types for the 1839 to 1860 period for pennies.

 I agree with Mike that the 1857PT referenced as “much smaller figures” by Spinks in 1895 must be the same as the one shown below, known as Gouby Date Style E, with the tall slim 7. This can be compared to the picture directly underneath, an example of a larger numeral type for this year. Each has been shot at the exact same 60x magnification, with same 1280 image widths, so that a true comparison of the dates can be made. I have tried to centre each coin so that the larger border tooth is 4 teeth from the right hand side of the images.

I have spent my spare time over the past couple of days carefully going through my images of all 1857 penny ebay sales over my 5 year study period. Nothing from this sample of 621 coins appears to have smaller numerals than seen on Gouby Style E.

In this sample there were 66 Gouby Style E pieces, around 10% of the entire 1857 population.

In my 5 year study period this 1857 Gouby Style E sub-variety actually appeared less often than say an 1846, 1845 or even an 1843. The numbers are more on a par with an 1849, or 1853 Plain Trident. This may surprise, but perhaps partly explain the 1895 Spinks wording.

One other thing that I noted was that Plain Trident 1857’s represent 68% of the population, slightly at variance with Bramah’s observations where he states on his Page 109:-

“for 1857 the P.T. are commoner than the O.T. as about 3 to 1, and the latter may be regarded as scarce”.

small_large_pred.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At first glance, numeral 7 on Style E appears to be much longer than on other ‘large’ numeral 1857 varieties, but there is actually not much difference……….the following set of pictures demonstrate. I believe this is a bit of an optical illusion because it is much thinner.

 Some collectors refer to this type as a ‘slender 7’……….. which I think I prefer).

Gouby E 57 Text.jpg

C to X 57's.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ian, again thanks so much for the incredibly useful info in the above twp posts..

Never realised there was also a rectangular shaped down serif to the 1857 seven. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×