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Regarding the 1913 high grade coins, could it be that they were released late in 1913 and then, with war breaking out in 1914, people began spending less and putting coins away ?

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31 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Regarding the 1913 high grade coins, could it be that they were released late in 1913 and then, with war breaking out in 1914, people began spending less and putting coins away ?

Then never subsequently spending them, but rather, forgetting them completely. That is one additional possibility. 

It's interesting that there don't seem to be that many truly high grade 1914's around. As far as I can tell anyway. 

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23 hours ago, Rob said:

Slightly off-topic, but still relevant. I think base coins have been collected throughout history. The lack of early documentation should not mean that numismatics was invented a few hundred years ago.

e.g.  The Bolsena hoard found 1890 in northern Italy contained several hundred Roman bronzes in top grade covering a period of roughly 170 years from Augustus onwards. There is no way that these were coins taken from circulation shortly before they were lost to their Roman(?) owner because sestertii and other bronzes were the currency workhorses that would rapidly wear with everyday use. Individual wealth was tied up in silver and gold. i.e. the bronzes had to be collected, and more importantly, they must have had a succession of owners, implying an established hobby, and by extension a rudimentary knowledge of coins from an historical angle.

Everything unproven is by definition conjecture, but it would be unreasonable to either assume or dismiss a reasoned argument given we only know a fraction of what actually happened 2, 3, 400 years ago or earlier

My point was not that people didn't collect base metal, but that they didn't collect CURRENT coins. In fact, that only began (slowly) after WW2.

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On 11/26/2019 at 10:29 AM, secret santa said:

Thanks Ian - now added.

Having received Ingram's latest magazine today, I see that he has 2 more F41's for sale. Of course they might be specimens that are already on your site, but it's nonetheless indicative of the fact that they are much less rare than we thought even a couple of years ago.  

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On 11/24/2019 at 4:31 PM, 1949threepence said:

I can't believe nobody noticed and collected this 1865 coronetted head pattern penny (F272) before about 80 years of wear. Incredible - link

 

crowned 1865.png

The world appeared a much smaller place when pre decimal coins were in circulation. There were just as many collectors but only a fraction of the communication. Contact between these collectors was by postal letter, possibly telephone and coin magazines. A coin such as this coronet could circulate quite easily between millions of exchanges by non collectors without even being looked at. Even if it was noticed now and again as being different, it would still not have stopped it being spent, especially in the chewing gum machine.

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11 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Having received Ingram's latest magazine today, I see that he has 2 more F41's for sale. Of course they might be specimens that are already on your site, but it's nonetheless indicative of the fact that they are much less rare than we thought even a couple of years ago.  

Yes, it's been fascinating to watch the populations of these rarities increase over and above Michael Gouby's and John Jerrams' census figures. I wasn't sure whether the concept would work when I suggested building this site but it's been a very interesting exercise. It certainly has confirmed the real rarity of some of the varieties.

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I have just noticed that my 1874H F73 has the E of REG tilted to the right. Not earth-shattering but interesting to the micro-variety fans. I haven't seen this on any other obverse 7 coins as yet.

1113983709_1874HF73obvzoomedited.jpg.ed671ca86bb498a9cf1df71584f70fb2.jpg

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5 hours ago, Bernie said:

The world appeared a much smaller place when pre decimal coins were in circulation. There were just as many collectors but only a fraction of the communication. Contact between these collectors was by postal letter, possibly telephone and coin magazines. A coin such as this coronet could circulate quite easily between millions of exchanges by non collectors without even being looked at. Even if it was noticed now and again as being different, it would still not have stopped it being spent, especially in the chewing gum machine.

That's probably it.

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5 hours ago, secret santa said:

I have just noticed that my 1874H F73 has the E of REG tilted to the right. Not earth-shattering but interesting to the micro-variety fans. I haven't seen this on any other obverse 7 coins as yet.

Just checked a few others and it does occur on other varieties, e.g F74  and all F76 specimens.

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4 hours ago, secret santa said:

Just checked a few others and it does occur on other varieties, e.g F74  and all F76 specimens.

That tilt to the right is also on my F73, F74 and very slightly on the F76.

There is a slight difference between the feature on the F73 and F74. The F73 is like the photo of the one you show above. But on the F74, there is no gap - the R & E actually touch. Also, on the F73, as with yours, the base of the E is slightly above the base of the R. On the F74, it is level with it. Photo of F74 obv. 

tilt to the right.jpg

Edited by 1949threepence

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On 11/28/2019 at 9:16 PM, 1949threepence said:

That tilt to the right is also on my F73, F74 and very slightly on the F76.

There is a slight difference between the feature on the F73 and F74. The F73 is like the photo of the one you show above. But on the F74, there is no gap - the R & E actually touch. Also, on the F73, as with yours, the base of the E is slightly above the base of the R. On the F74, it is level with it. Photo of F74 obv. 

tilt to the right.jpg

Is that a specimen, Mike? It has a pronounced rim.

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56 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Is that a specimen, Mike? It has a pronounced rim.

It is, Chris, yes. It's the F74 from the Copthorne collection.

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On 11/28/2019 at 8:39 PM, Bernie said:

A coin such as this coronet could circulate quite easily between millions of exchanges by non collectors without even being looked at. Even if it was noticed now and again as being different, it would still not have stopped it being spent, especially in the chewing gum machine.

I remember a few years ago a friend of a friend saying they found a double-headed coin in change - a magician's coin or whatever I'm sure - but they said they spent it.

They only mentioned it to me because they knew I was a collector.

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5 hours ago, Mr T said:

I remember a few years ago a friend of a friend saying they found a double-headed coin in change - a magician's coin or whatever I'm sure - but they said they spent it.

They only mentioned it to me because they knew I was a collector.

Yes.

What I meant in my original remark is surprise that it could circulate for that length of time without at least one collector noticing it and stashing it away.    

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"How the hell is this worn??"  was my initial thought.

This is one coin that attracts me.

 

With funds, anyone's collection can be amazing.

Spectacular circular pieces of art.

All the specimen and proofs in the back of the books have never ever attracted me.

If you are rich, you can almost just go and buy them whenever you want.

That's not really collecting to me.  Not jealousy,  just fact.

 

However,  the frisson of excitement the first time a collector noticed this must have been amazing.

Now I'm jealous. ....what a story this coin could tell, and how many times did it slide across a shop counter

right under the nose of an avid penny collector, (as the child in front bought a quarter of acid drops, )

but showing 'tails'........????

 

 

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13 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

"How the hell is this worn??"  was my initial thought.

This is one coin that attracts me.

 

With funds, anyone's collection can be amazing.

Spectacular circular pieces of art.

All the specimen and proofs in the back of the books have never ever attracted me.

If you are rich, you can almost just go and buy them whenever you want.

That's not really collecting to me.  Not jealousy,  just fact.

 

However,  the frisson of excitement the first time a collector noticed this must have been amazing.

Now I'm jealous. ....what a story this coin could tell, and how many times did it slide across a shop counter

right under the nose of an avid penny collector, (as the child in front bought a quarter of acid drops, )

but showing 'tails'........????

 

 

I posted this some time back .  It just goes to show what can go through your fingers which you later regret.

Talking of what was, and was not released into circulation , during the war my mother picked up in change a brass 3d piece, which to her was just a 3d bit to spend ,she at that time had absolutely no thoughts at all of coin collecting , as after all there was a war on and she was a teenager with thoughts only of spending money . Anyway, she just glancing at the coin and noticed that the tails side was different to the normal 3d, being as she said, different with more of a stylised design than normal , but then gave the coin no more thought, and passed it to the bus conductor to pay for her fare . Well, many years later , after starting to collect coins, she found out about the Edward viii 3d piece with the stylised reverse, and knew that was what she had held in her hand all those years before , she felt sick, thinking if only I had known of there existence at the time, and if only she had turned the coin over she might have noticed that it was an Edward viii 3d, and not the George vi .   I believe these were all pattern coins, and were not supposed to be released into circulation.  God knows what there worth today, maybe one of you on here has one , let us know.    It makes me wonder what may have passed through my hands without my knowing about its rarity .      Terry

RMM43_rev[1].jpg

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49 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

"How the hell is this worn??"  was my initial thought.

This is one coin that attracts me.

 

With funds, anyone's collection can be amazing.

Spectacular circular pieces of art.

All the specimen and proofs in the back of the books have never ever attracted me.

If you are rich, you can almost just go and buy them whenever you want.

That's not really collecting to me.  Not jealousy,  just fact.

 

However,  the frisson of excitement the first time a collector noticed this must have been amazing.

Now I'm jealous. ....what a story this coin could tell, and how many times did it slide across a shop counter

right under the nose of an avid penny collector, (as the child in front bought a quarter of acid drops, )

but showing 'tails'........????

 

 

Me too, although there is another one at the same auction that attracts me slightly more, and I won't have the funds to compete for both.

As you say this is very unusual. Most patterns have not seen circulation, or at any rate nowhere near the circulation that this one has seen. It's the very fact this has circulated for so long that makes it so attractive. Imagine how the finder felt when discovering this coin in change, or however it was picked up. Would have been one of those events of such positivity for a collector, that it's never forgotten. 

Wonder when it was discovered? Maybe late 1940's/early 50's judging by the wear. Also, where's it been since then? These are the type of questions you ponder when looking at rare but well worn coins.     

32 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

I posted this some time back .  It just goes to show what can go through your fingers which you later regret.

Talking of what was, and was not released into circulation , during the war my mother picked up in change a brass 3d piece, which to her was just a 3d bit to spend ,she at that time had absolutely no thoughts at all of coin collecting , as after all there was a war on and she was a teenager with thoughts only of spending money . Anyway, she just glancing at the coin and noticed that the tails side was different to the normal 3d, being as she said, different with more of a stylised design than normal , but then gave the coin no more thought, and passed it to the bus conductor to pay for her fare . Well, many years later , after starting to collect coins, she found out about the Edward viii 3d piece with the stylised reverse, and knew that was what she had held in her hand all those years before , she felt sick, thinking if only I had known of there existence at the time, and if only she had turned the coin over she might have noticed that it was an Edward viii 3d, and not the George vi .   I believe these were all pattern coins, and were not supposed to be released into circulation.  God knows what there worth today, maybe one of you on here has one , let us know.    It makes me wonder what may have passed through my hands without my knowing about its rarity .      Terry

RMM43_rev[1].jpg

Yes, I remember you mentioning this once before, Terry. As you say, your Mum must have felt a bit sick when she realised the value of what she'd held and inadvertently let go. But then the vast majority would not appreciate the value at the time. If she'd picked it up- during the war, it must have seen at least 2 or 3 years circulation then.  

   

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I assume it must have been in circulation for a few years as you say, but at the time I doubt she would have noticed how worn the coin was .  To late to ask her now.

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3 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

"How the hell is this worn??"  was my initial thought.

This is one coin that attracts me.

 

With funds, anyone's collection can be amazing.

Spectacular circular pieces of art.

All the specimen and proofs in the back of the books have never ever attracted me.

If you are rich, you can almost just go and buy them whenever you want.

That's not really collecting to me.  Not jealousy,  just fact.

 

However,  the frisson of excitement the first time a collector noticed this must have been amazing.

Now I'm jealous. ....what a story this coin could tell, and how many times did it slide across a shop counter

right under the nose of an avid penny collector, (as the child in front bought a quarter of acid drops, )

but showing 'tails'........????

 

 

 

I know this is a generalisation, but 17th century copper proofs/patterns and silver halfpennies of CII to WmIII are often found very worn , so must have gone into circulation for some reason, but this is much less evident with the 18th century equivalents which are nearly always in much better condition. 

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I've become increasingly interested in the possibility that the 1897 O . NE penny might have been a full stop punched in the wrong place. Same principle might apply to other dot pennies, but for the purposes of this exercise I'm concentrating on the F147. If you examine the dot it is of perfect circular symmetry and is (as far as I can tell) exactly the same size and structure as a full stop or colon dot on the obverse. It certainly wouldn't attract any comment in the same position as a colon dot. 

Ranged against this argument, of course, is the documented discovery of pennies with only a mark in this area, suggestive of gradual formation due to die flaw.

In an article written for the October 1976 edition of Coin Monthly (The importance of FLAWS AND VARIETIES on modern bronze, pages 67 to 71) Michael Freeman states in this regard (page 71):- 

Quote

"A problem can arise when a flaw, such as a raised circular dot, appears, and no specimen is known exhibiting an earlier stage of the flaw and thus enabling one to confirm the feature as such. This occurs on pennies of 1870, 1897 and 1946, on areas which appear unlikely to indicate intention. Possibly when an adjustment was being made to the position of a die, or when it was being cleaned or replaced, it may have been hit by the end of a pointed instrument. Another possibility is that was easier to 'tidy up' a flaw by removing a little more metal and thus also to stop it from spreading, then to engrave new dies. I offer these only as tentative suggestions and no doubt others with greater knowledge of the technical problems involved in striking coins, can give better explanations. Until recently, I had believed these features intentional because the dots always appeared perfectly round, but I have now seen a specimen of the 1897 on which it is no more than a tiny lump with small cracks around it"

However, in the 43 years which have elapsed since Mr Freeman noticed this apparently early stage flaw specimen of the 1897 dot, how many others have been seen where the dot is in this early stage? Does anybody have a picture of one? Might this formation have been unconnected with the dot, and just co-incidentally be in the same place?

Thoughts?                     

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I have seen a couple of early flaw 1897 ones on ebay, but the 1870 and 1875 cannonball I have have perfect round dots.

I haven't seen nascent versions of these, but, conversely, I haven't seen the 1946 turn into a round dot.

Or was the flaw noticed before it had time to develop?

 

It all  rather reminds me of the VIGTORIA 1862- I find it more than a coincidence that it occurs right next to a know progressive die flaw,

combined with the fact that there seem to be different styles of 'G', often not the font used on the rest of the coin.....

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The jury's still out on the 1897 Dot . it was at first thought to be a identification marker , but its now thought to be the result of an indentation made on the top of the die , thereby giving a neat full stop like appearance .  As to the Vigtoria Richard doesn't show this close up picture on his site , and as you can see the G looks far to neat in shape to be the result of a die crack, so I would favour the over stamped G made in error as the most likely cause , as the font punch used it could have come from dies used on different denominations or from a foreign coin type being produced at the mint.

959176595_vigtorianotvictoria.png.2a6df0edec626f47cdc0f251419ef2a6.png

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3 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I have seen a couple of early flaw 1897 ones on ebay, but the 1870 and 1875 cannonball I have have perfect round dots.

I haven't seen nascent versions of these, but, conversely, I haven't seen the 1946 turn into a round dot.

Or was the flaw noticed before it had time to develop?

 

It all  rather reminds me of the VIGTORIA 1862- I find it more than a coincidence that it occurs right next to a know progressive die flaw,

combined with the fact that there seem to be different styles of 'G', often not the font used on the rest of the coin.....

Here is a 1870 I sold a few years back...it is definitely a round dot!

IMG_2470.JPG

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20 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

Here is a 1870 I sold a few years back...it is definitely a round dot!

IMG_2470.JPG

For you variety guys.....(dots & apostrophe's) I have two 1946 "Dots" for sale. One is a 1946 "apostrophe", it is NGC AU55BN, and a 1946 with a perfect round "dot", it is CGS F 20. Both are slabbed. Here is a chance to get both types. $230 for the pair +$15 shipping. I do not wish to sell separately. 

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Please- a pic of the round dot one...that will rather help this thread!

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