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14 hours ago, Gaz T said:

And this one.

IMG_E2164.JPG

IMG_E2165.JPG

It's a pity the reverse isn't as well preserved as the obverse. Judging by the hair detail, that penny was lost to the ground after not many years in circulation.   

Edited by 1949threepence

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What has happened to that penny Terry ? it looks like its been baked in the oven.

I have never found a penny before with that type of corrosion.

This is how many copper coins it took over the last few months to find the three reasonable coins I posted.

IMG_E2172.JPG

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1 hour ago, Gaz T said:

What has happened to that penny Terry ? it looks like its been baked in the oven.

I have never found a penny before with that type of corrosion.

This is how many copper coins it took over the last few months to find the three reasonable coins I posted.

IMG_E2172.JPG

To be honest I don't know it was for sale on ebay a while back, below is the other side , just as bad !!

563135694_1865withwoodworm.thumb.jpg.56730f364ce431f5b925b1ae3eb7b682.jpg

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It looks like cast iron, I’ve just put a few of the field found coins in the dishwasher to see if they come out like yours, then I will bake a few tomorrow 😁

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Previously caked in dried out grease? Any cracks would then allow selective acidic solution to give a pattern such as that on the obverse. It surely has to be something non-polar covering the partially protected areas, given the more deeply corroded areas are likely down to acidic conditions.

Edited by Rob

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14 hours ago, Gaz T said:

What has happened to that penny Terry ? it looks like its been baked in the oven.

I have never found a penny before with that type of corrosion.

This is how many copper coins it took over the last few months to find the three reasonable coins I posted.

IMG_E2172.JPG

Gaz, what sort of sites do you detect on?

I go out sometimes and find bugger all, with a good detector...

Is a lot of it down to research before search?

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1 hour ago, blakeyboy said:

I go out sometimes and find bugger all, with a good detector...

There's to many of you detecting . I have fields surrounding me and during my time here I have seen one organised mass detecting weekend and numerous private individuals going around and around the field ,  just about every thing worth finding made of metal has gone, mostly what they find is horseshoes , nails and bits broken off a plough.   You cant help but notice how many coins on ebay are corroded , and must be from ground finds .  Good luck with it anyway you never know you might turn up a real gem.   :D

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Yes, it's gone mad.

Still, I keep looking.

A friend showed me a Celtic gold stater he had found, with the horse on it,

probably the most beautiful object I'll ever touch.....

 

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13 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Gaz, what sort of sites do you detect on?

I go out sometimes and find bugger all, with a good detector...

Is a lot of it down to research before search?

Hi, 

Most of the research I do is checking old maps to modern ordinance maps. I live in the Peak District so a lot of penny shooting on the hills, I suppose over the years people have used the hills as there holiday destination so lots of small change being dropped. Plus I have gained over the years some really nice historical farm land to search .. I’m always on the search for new land to detect, like Terry says there is a lot of new people taking the hobby up, I don’t think this is a bad thing as we are filling the museums up with wonderful artefacts and at the same time removing all the junk from the farmers fields especially now they are spreading green waste. 

As to going out and finding bugger all I’ve been there hundreds of times. Just keep plodding on. 

 

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I can't believe nobody noticed and collected this 1865 coronetted head pattern penny (F272) before about 80 years of wear. Incredible - link

 

crowned 1865.png

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23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I can't believe nobody noticed and collected this 1865 coronetted head pattern penny (F272) before about 80 years of wear. Incredible - link

 

crowned 1865.png

Could almost be a CuNi one from the DNW photography! Though I suppose that would be even less likely to get into circulation.

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On 11/24/2019 at 4:31 PM, 1949threepence said:

I can't believe nobody noticed and collected this 1865 coronetted head pattern penny (F272) before about 80 years of wear. Incredible - link

 

crowned 1865.png

It could be that it was noticed but because no-one collected "base metal modern" at the time, it may have been regarded as just a curio?

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42 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

It could be that it was noticed but because no-one collected "base metal modern" at the time, it may have been regarded as just a curio?

That's an interesting theory, because I'm sure that at some time or other, (earlier than we think), collectors did start collecting base metal coins. 

For example, note the relatively high number of a/UNC F175's and 176's on Richard's rarest pennies website. Both Freeman and Court estimated the pre withdrawal figures of those types to be well over 1 million and just under a million respectively. Given that the varieties are now so rare, I would say that they were not readily recognised by collectors, but some (a few) were collected by default at a very early stage in their lives.

Not so with the open 3 1903, the F164A, and the F169 - all of which had a much lower mintage estimate, and which now are not seen in high grade. The obvious implication being that date examples collected from those years, soon after mintage, would be almost certainly have been the common varieties, owing to the much greater initial rarity.    

Edited by 1949threepence

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Don't know if a member grabbed the 1862 penny with HP numerals on Sunday evening, which sold in a group of 9 for £143.04. Poor grade, but date very clear.

I have cropped the ebay pictures in case Richard wishes to add to his site.

1862Rev.jpg

1862Obv.jpg

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I don't know if this has been spotted by you serious penny variety specialists - very nice 1860 penny, 2+D with the N over Z. Excellent pictures if needed for the rarest penny site:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/sometimes-it-pays-to-double-check-yourself.350656/

(presumably you would need to discuss with the poster if he is happy for you to use them...)

P

 

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Really nice coin Paddy, but I'm not sure the N/Z is considered rare enough for Richard's rarestpennies website.

Wasn't mentioned in the cointalk thread but the N/Z reverse is actually seen paired with two different obverse dies.....been discussed on the forum before on Page 61 'More Pennies'

 

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I think I've seen enough specimens of this variety to exclude it from my rarest penny site. Michael Gouby's book states "35+ known" making it Freeman R17 but my gut feel is that it's more like R16.

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23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

That's an interesting theory, because I'm sure that at some time or other, (earlier than we think), collectors did start collecting base metal coins. 

For example, note the relatively high number of a/UNC F175's and 176's on Richard's rarest pennies website. Both Freeman and Court estimated the pre withdrawal figures of those types to be well over 1 million and just under a million respectively. Given that the varieties are now so rare, I would say that they were not readily recognised by collectors, but some (a few) were collected by default at a very early stage in their lives.

Not so with the open 3 1903, the F164A, and the F169 - all of which had a much lower mintage estimate, and which now are not seen in high grade. The obvious implication being that date examples collected from those years, soon after mintage, would be almost certainly have been the common varieties, owing to the much greater initial rarity.    

It's an area ripe for study. Certainly collectors in Victorian times (as opposed to mere "putters away" of new types) didn't really bother with their own base metal coinage, and the rarity of BU bun pennies possibly bears this out.

Had that changed by 1913? Very difficult to say, but it may be that "putters away" of 1913 pennies accounted for the survival of now rare varieties in high grade, the circulated examples of which were swept up in 1971.

I absolutely agree with the case of people putting away examples of new reigns when they first appeared, which helps explain why the 1902LT penny is relatively easy to find in top grades, it being the earlier variety and therefore the first to appear.

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23 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

That's an interesting theory, because I'm sure that at some time or other, (earlier than we think), collectors did start collecting base metal coins.  

Slightly off-topic, but still relevant. I think base coins have been collected throughout history. The lack of early documentation should not mean that numismatics was invented a few hundred years ago.

e.g.  The Bolsena hoard found 1890 in northern Italy contained several hundred Roman bronzes in top grade covering a period of roughly 170 years from Augustus onwards. There is no way that these were coins taken from circulation shortly before they were lost to their Roman(?) owner because sestertii and other bronzes were the currency workhorses that would rapidly wear with everyday use. Individual wealth was tied up in silver and gold. i.e. the bronzes had to be collected, and more importantly, they must have had a succession of owners, implying an established hobby, and by extension a rudimentary knowledge of coins from an historical angle.

Everything unproven is by definition conjecture, but it would be unreasonable to either assume or dismiss a reasoned argument given we only know a fraction of what actually happened 2, 3, 400 years ago or earlier

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10 hours ago, secret santa said:

I think I've seen enough specimens of this variety to exclude it from my rarest penny site. Michael Gouby's book states "35+ known" making it Freeman R17 but my gut feel is that it's more like R16.

I've personally owned about 10-12 different specimens over the years.

Passed on as I upgraded or just sold if not an improvement...

I only recall 2 without the recut A, all the others had the recut A indentifier...

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7 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

It's an area ripe for study. Certainly collectors in Victorian times (as opposed to mere "putters away" of new types) didn't really bother with their own base metal coinage, and the rarity of BU bun pennies possibly bears this out.

Had that changed by 1913? Very difficult to say, but it may be that "putters away" of 1913 pennies accounted for the survival of now rare varieties in high grade, the circulated examples of which were swept up in 1971.

I absolutely agree with the case of people putting away examples of new reigns when they first appeared, which helps explain why the 1902LT penny is relatively easy to find in top grades, it being the earlier variety and therefore the first to appear.

Indeed it is.

With specific regard to the 175's and 176's, clearly there are a few worn ones, as you would expect, but they are predominantly high grade.

Just to expand slightly on my personal theory, I'd say that when coin collecting (strongly including pennies) really took off in the mid to late 1960's, these "sub" varieties (for want of a better word), were not known about. In fact, having bought one of those original small "Check your Change" booklets from the 1960's, off e bay, I note they only mentioned the well known varieties, such as the LT, H's and KN's, plus the 1926ME. Nothing else. I'd bet many novice collectors of that time were working off those booklets, and hence would overlook the varieties not mentioned. Hence their current rarity, as opposed to the many worn LT's, H's and KN's up for sale. Mind, the one I have is issue No 1, so maybe there were additions in the subsequent issues.

Far from totally clear whether I'm correct or not, but I think the theory stacks up logically.

   

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