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Just now, DrLarry said:

oh really on two dates?  just goes to show there are so many things we have not yet discovered and as you say tip of the iceberg goers who is to say what someone might find !!! 

Oh yes. There are several variants of 1922, at least one is probably unique, and a few extremely rare 1926MEs.

The beginning point is to ask yourself : "Why was the 1926ME penny a mule?" No-one has ever come up with a definitive answer but I have a theory...

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6 minutes ago, Peckris said:

Oh yes. There are several variants of 1922, at least one is probably unique, and a few extremely rare 1926MEs.

The beginning point is to ask yourself : "Why was the 1926ME penny a mule?" No-one has ever come up with a definitive answer but I have a theory...

i have asked myself that very same question many times it made no sense to me at all , other than the fact that there are no others until 1926 are there ?  I always assumed that is the only rational answer ....but I agree it is a very strange thing 

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7 hours ago, DrLarry said:

yes I am pretty much done with buying I have thousands to prepare and admire across the ages from staters to sixpences 3000 years of history is enough even for me ....I did find one of those funny old 1922's with the strange trident detached from the teeth the other day.  My modified 26's sadly would not rank high on my best of bunch 

The 1922 you describe as " strange trident detached from the teeth "...........Do you have a picture please Larry :o

The F192A is RARE :)

Edited by PWA 1967

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17 hours ago, Cliff said:

Hello Ian. I've been following your recent very interesting posts with interest and would like to submit my 1853 PT Penny for your consideration which I bought from Colin Cooke as Unc GLus with "small spot on Obv field" in Oct 2003 (which puts it before your 5 year study?).

I'm happy enough to give it P1504, Bramah 16 but I'm blowed if I can give it a Gouby date type with any confidence!  Whilst seeming to fit Gouby date style C, the date width is too narrow.  His date style C (?) does have the same date width as mine BUT, although the E of DEI has been repaired in both examples, my 3 does not appear to have been altered in any way.

I will attempt to attach pics but I usually manage to cock it up.

Any comments would be welcome.

1853D P1504 Bramah 16 Obv.jpg

1853D P1504 Bramah 16 Rev.jpg

 

Hi Cliff,

Nice 1853PT.

You are correct that your 1853PT is a narrower date width than the Gouby Style C example shown on his website. When one examines the last two numerals of the dates on the Victorian YH penny series under high magnification one finds that there are many minor variations in date widths, numeral alignment and distance to the border teeth. It is rather like the reverse where Bramah said:-

“Another prolific source of minor variation is provided

by the colons on the rev. Probably every die creates a

                              colon variant…..”

To date I have recorded 8 variations like this with the Gouby Style C font, your PT date is amongst them, and has the exact same features as your E of DEI which confirms.

You will note on MG’s site that for his italic Style A font he goes on to give additional examples as Aa and Ab, where the last 2 digits are differently located. So I think your piece IS a Style C, but just with variant last two digits which could have been recorded as a Ca or other sub-suffix. Indeed, in hindsight, I would have preferred the example (my coin) which you will see as his Style D to have been recorded as a Style C variant………as it is the same C font, not a new one.  

Hope this helps; I have pictures of the 8 variations if you would like them, but they are over 3Mb so unable to post on the forum without first reducing definition…….which kind of defeats the objective!

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22 hours ago, DrLarry said:

Morning Ian, when you were looking at the 53's could you tell me did you ever come across one that has a raised dot in the field toward the outer edge across from the right side of the portrait?  Many thanks Larry 

My initial study was to split counts as per my spreadsheet column headings, so I wasn't particularly looking for dots in the fields. I will have a quick scan if you send me a picture example. My experience of 'dots in fields' are that they are either part of a 'progressive' die flaw or a damage / rust spot picked up later in life through wear and tear. Additional / repaired colon dots I find more interesting e.g. the 1841 REG:: or the extra half dot seen after FID on the 1853OT  

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5 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The 1922 you describe as " strange trident detached from the teeth "...........Do you have a picture please Larry :o

The F192A is RARE :)

5 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The 1922 you describe as " strange trident detached from the teeth "...........Do you have a picture please Larry :o

The F192A is RARE :)

sure but it is in terrible condition I purchased a load of "dug" coins for a £5 I have not really looked at it properly you may well tell me it is nothing just looked a little different to me   

CM180712-114423001 (122x200).jpg

CM180712-114452002 (122x200).jpg

CM180712-114530003 (159x200).jpg

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Teeth are wrong for an F192A I think. The trident tip looks a bit misshapen.

Jerry

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14 hours ago, DrLarry said:

i have asked myself that very same question many times it made no sense to me at all , other than the fact that there are no others until 1926 are there ?  I always assumed that is the only rational answer ....but I agree it is a very strange thing 

The 1926ME (standard issue) penny is the only Modified Effigy mule. The 1925ME halfpenny came with a modified reverse, as did the 1926 farthing. The 1926ME silver is always paired with the older pre-ME reverse, but they are not considered mules as there was a whole new set of reverses in the pipeline, which were issued (mostly just as proofs) in 1927.

The questions that have to be asked about  the 1926 penny issue are:

1. Why was it such a small issue - 4m - after 3 years with no pennies at all, and a big issue planned with redesigned obverse and reverse for 1927?

2. Why are most 1926 pennies of the older type, with the ME mule appearing at the end of its run?

My theory accounts for both questions, but will have to remain theoretical in the absence of Mint documentation.

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3 hours ago, jelida said:

Teeth are wrong for an F192A I think. The trident tip looks a bit misshapen.

Jerry

9 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The 1922 you describe as " strange trident detached from the teeth "...........Do you have a picture please Larry :o

The F192A is RARE :)

yes I dont think they are long enough as you say Jerry 

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8 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Her left hand is too near the prongs of the trident for the F192A.

1922 F192A zoom3.JPG

10 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The 1922 you describe as " strange trident detached from the teeth "...........Do you have a picture please Larry :o

The F192A is RARE :)

yes very true certainly different from yours, but it is nice to see these things I did not hold out for her and in any case she is rather damaged  I just happened to notice the gap I am not going to pick about under the verdigris.  I dont have many G V pennies just one of each basic variety in a decent grade for completion sake , there is a nice softness to the design 

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Thanks for all the info re my 1853PT Penny Ian. Would much appreciate a PM of the 8 variations you mention when you have a minute. I need to have another look at the few other 1853s I have.

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Hi Cliff, I emailed the 1853 date pictures to your private email address first thing yesterday, think was around 8Mb in data. I haven't had an undeliverable, so it's possible they are sitting in your 'junk'. Just thought I would check as haven't heard back. Cheers, Ian

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Hello Ian, apologies for not responding earlier, been involved with youngest granddaughter's school sports-day, then collection and a sleepover plus dropping her back with her parents earlier this morning.  Doesn't sound much in the telling but .......

Confirm the pics arrived in all their glory, for which I thank you very much. I think they would be great as part of an up to date Copper Penny publication if ever "someone" with the knowledge, skill, inclination and time could be persuaded to do it?!?!?!?

Thanks again for your help, much appreciated. Cliff

 

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On 12/07/2018 at 6:39 PM, Cliff said:

Thanks for all the info re my 1853PT Penny Ian. Would much appreciate a PM of the 8 variations you mention when you have a minute. I need to have another look at the few other 1853s I have.

I will also revisit mine and see if I can recall the legend errors I noticed which led me to collect so many. Larry 

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Probably be up for sale again next week Mike with his other account....Seller who drives me nuts :) .

For that reason i would not be sure the final amount will be genuine.

 

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25 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Probably be up for sale again next week Mike with his other account....Seller who drives me nuts :) .

For that reason i would not be sure the final amount will be genuine.

 

I've never bought anything off him, as his reputation appears to precede him.   

As for the condition, GVF++? more like GF.  

Edited by 1949threepence
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4 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I've never bought anything off him, as his reputation appears to precede him.   

I have only bought one Mike and was quite surprised when it arrived..........I must of paid to much for it :D

Edited by PWA 1967
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I asked him once whether the other account was linked he told me it was his cousin...I noticed soon after that the results started to appear as Private (I do find that part of bidding on ebay quite wrong) I used to buy off him quite a lot until recently I dont trust them anymore 

 

But he has obviously got himself a few new books and is going through them like a dose they seems to fall into his lap 

Edited by DrLarry

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On 21/07/2018 at 8:10 PM, PWA 1967 said:

I have only bought one Mike and was quite surprised when it arrived..........I must of paid to much for it :D

Well it finally went for £875. 

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2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Well it finally went for £875. 

I saved the link but now it won't show the original entry - Ebay must have changed that aspect of its software (try clicking on the link above !).

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11 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I saved the link but now it won't show the original entry - Ebay must have changed that aspect of its software (try clicking on the link above !).

When you click on that link above, Richard, look for the blue line just above the new entry, where it says 

"The listing you’re looking for is no longer available. Check out this similar item we found for you."

and click on the word "listing" - that will take you to the original F32 listing and result.  

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9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

and click on the word "listing" - that will take you to the original F32 listing and result.  

Yes, that works and is new.

Thanks Mike

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One thing's for sure. If I had been after it, and was the winner, I sure as hell wouldn't want it sent "£2.50 economy". Would have to be tracked next day delivery for an item of that rarity and value. 

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