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Mynki

CGS Grading again

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What attributes would a coin have to have before you thought it would be worth sending for CGS grading. For example, estimated value, grade etc.

What would stop you having a coin slabbed? Serious answer only please. I fully appreciate that some people greatly dislike the idea of slabbing a coin and I fully respect their reasons for doing so.

Thanks in advance.

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If its a known fake and i was unsure, such like gothic crowns or nothumbrrland shillings

Edited by azda

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Azda, forgive my ignorance but I'm not 100% sure I understand.At the risk of looking foolish, do you mean that would be a reason to slab or not to slab?

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On a similar note of seriousness, and I'm not being flippant, just select a couple of coins and send them off, it'll be peanuts in the grand scheme of things! The experience will answer most of your questions...it will solve experience, your own perception of quality, AND the CGS criteria! It's a small price to pay!

The upside is you can then bark (maybe) on the forum, as slabbing is highly emotive, as you have probably guessed! :)

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What attributes would a coin have to have before you thought it would be worth sending for CGS grading. For example, estimated value, grade etc.

What would stop you having a coin slabbed? Serious answer only please. I fully appreciate that some people greatly dislike the idea of slabbing a coin and I fully respect their reasons for doing so.

Thanks in advance.

I would only slab a coin if I wanted to sell it at Heritage and I would not slab it at CGS but at NGC or PCGS. Reasons for that are that Heritage seems to get the best prices but slabbing is a must to achieve that.

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whether or not it came back slabbed would be my reason to submit. There's a lot of good fakes out there, those are 2 of them

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There's no reason for anyone in the UK to slab for a better price, as received wisdom seems to be that any price upgrade - if any - is marginal.

For me, I'd like answers to the following questions:

1) what value is a 'population report' when so few UK coins are slabbed?

2) how would I store such plastic slabs in my mahogany cabinets?

3) how would be able to enjoy my coins, twisting them in the light to see them to best effect?

It's a no-brainer. In other words, .... no no, I mustn't!

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How does one go about getting a coin stabbed by CGS? I've had a look on their website and they only have the one uk affiliate. Is CGS the prefered company to slab coins?

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Reasons to send to TPG:

1. Estimated value is > $1000 AND you intend to sell it at some point (or your heirs will most likely sell it) and desire to appeal to the largest number of buyers to achieve the best price

2. AND You wish to protect the coin from possible environmental or mechanical damage

3. AND its estimated value is condition sensitive such that damage would materially affect its value/appeal to potential buyers

Reasons NOT to send to TPG:

1. Low value coin (poor condition, very common, etc.)

2. High value coin AND Don't intend to sell ever and don't worry about potential environmental or mechanical damage

So the estimated value of the coin is an important factor. Knowing how to estimate a value involves knowing how to grade as well of course as having a resource to determine value based on rarity and grade. To help make a decision, one should seek out a trusted dealer to evaluate the coin.

Personally, I would slab a coin that had great eye appeal even if it was only worth a few hundred dollars in order to preserve it's surfaces. Although if a gold coin, it's pretty stable, but silver and copper are pretty reactive to the atmosphere.

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Gold scratches easily Marvin, you also put reason to Slab and not to slab, enviromental and Mechanical, not sure what you mean by mechanical, can you explain that one?

Edited by azda

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How does one go about getting a coin stabbed by CGS? I've had a look on their website and they only have the one uk affiliate. Is CGS the prefered company to slab coins?

You send it to the affiliate and in Turn they'll send to Amerrica, NOTHING is graded anywhere other than their US offices. I enquired about it Here in Munich and their turnaround of 6 weeks was actually quicker than CGS who Have up to a 3 month wait

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Protection from environmental damage is also debatable! We've had numerous discussion about locking away acidic fingerprint et al. on many occasions. You have to remember that encapsulation is still in its infancy...imagine all those poor people who, twenty years from now, are looking into their 'scratched cases' at etched prints and other ailments!

I add scratched cases to make a point, that if you can keep the windows to your tombs all bright and clear, then I argue you can also keep and store a raw coin without damaging it! ;)

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I must omit to buying a few slabbed coins which remain in slabs it helps cure my OCD.

My cars and house were immaculate until i was invaded by a wife 2 cats a dog and 2 daughters...they seem to create mayhem.

I like to get in my garage with my radio and car....my dog likes to join me to avoid Eastenders etc

I also keep a bottle of Malt in there :rolleyes:

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Protection from environmental damage is also debatable! We've had numerous discussion about locking away acidic fingerprint et al. on many occasions. You have to remember that encapsulation is still in its infancy...imagine all those poor people who, twenty years from now, are looking into their 'scratched cases' at etched prints and other ailments!

I add scratched cases to make a point, that if you can keep the windows to your tombs all bright and clear, then I argue you can also keep and store a raw coin without damaging it! ;)

Exactly. If you have a decent cabinet and don't live right by the sea, neither environmental or "mechanical" (?) damage should be a worry.

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What attributes would a coin have to have before you thought it would be worth sending for CGS grading. For example, estimated value, grade etc.

To be honest, I'm like Jaggy. I see little point in asking CGS to slab any of my coins because it sounds as if their standards mean that few hammered coins would be accepted. Bent, scratched, surface damage, cleaned, edge knocks ... too much scope for rejection to waste my money finding out.

Whereas I know PCGS and NGC do slab hammered coins in similar and worse condition than mine. So were I intending to sell a coin in the US this might help get a better price. So for me the only possible reasons would be if I was thinking of selling, or for amusement value to see what grade it might receive.

What would stop you having a coin slabbed?

Basically concern about likely rejection (I know relatively it's a small amount of money but I could potentially buy another coin for the price of slabbing two with CGS). Apart from that I don't feel the need for someone else to tell me if one of my coins is nice or not, what they would grade it, or for it to be protected any more than they are at present ...

.

Edited by TomGoodheart

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And depending on which one of their graders you get determines the grade your coin gets.

I often agree with their grading and of course sometimes don't. That would probably be true of most of us. So why pay for the privilege.

mark

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Gold scratches easily Marvin, you also put reason to Slab and not to slab, enviromental and Mechanical, not sure what you mean by mechanical, can you explain that one?

Mechanical damage are things like scratches, bag marks, dents, etc. Environmental are things like pvc damage, water spots, thumb prints (acid from your fingers), chemical damage from reactive liquids or other pollutants in the air, etc.

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Protection from environmental damage is also debatable! We've had numerous discussion about locking away acidic fingerprint et al. on many occasions. You have to remember that encapsulation is still in its infancy...imagine all those poor people who, twenty years from now, are looking into their 'scratched cases' at etched prints and other ailments!

I add scratched cases to make a point, that if you can keep the windows to your tombs all bright and clear, then I argue you can also keep and store a raw coin without damaging it! ;)

The "tombs" as you put it, are easily replaced; the surfaces of your coins, not so - hence my point. And perhaps you can store a raw coin in perfect humidity with nary a problem. But it only takes one drop to forever damage a coin. How many old large crowns have you seen with rim dings? As for (as of yet) invisible finger prints lurking only to turn and etch in a few years, if you're concerned about that, a dip in acetone is harmless to a coin's surfaces and effectively dissolves any organic material on the coin's surfaces. Then "entomb" it.

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Protection from environmental damage is also debatable! We've had numerous discussion about locking away acidic fingerprint et al. on many occasions. You have to remember that encapsulation is still in its infancy...imagine all those poor people who, twenty years from now, are looking into their 'scratched cases' at etched prints and other ailments!

I add scratched cases to make a point, that if you can keep the windows to your tombs all bright and clear, then I argue you can also keep and store a raw coin without damaging it! ;)

Exactly. If you have a decent cabinet and don't live right by the sea, neither environmental or "mechanical" (?) damage should be a worry.

So you've got your Una and the Lion safely ensconced in your cabinet, and each time you pull out the drawer, perhaps it moves a bit over the wooden or lined surface of the drawer, thereby picking up cabinet friction; or you take it out to admire it occasionally, and you've done it a hundred times with no problems, but just once, you accidentally drop it on your tiled floor. Or your wife thinks it looks a little dusty sitting in that cabinet and cleans it up a bit with a furniture polishing cloth; or, or or.... Then you go to sell it only to see in the catalog description a remark about this or that "rim ding" or "cleaning" or "hairlines" or... How many times have I seen those words in British auction catalogs??? So, sure, if you have a "decent?" cabinet, you don't have to worry.

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What attributes would a coin have to have before you thought it would be worth sending for CGS grading. For example, estimated value, grade etc.

To be honest, I'm like Jaggy. I see little point in asking CGS to slab any of my coins because it sounds as if their standards mean that few hammered coins would be accepted. Bent, scratched, surface damage, cleaned, edge knocks ... too much scope for rejection to waste my money finding out.

Whereas I know PCGS and NGC do slab hammered coins in similar and worse condition than mine. So were I intending to sell a coin in the US this might help get a better price. So for me the only possible reasons would be if I was thinking of selling, or for amusement value to see what grade it might receive.

What would stop you having a coin slabbed?

Basically concern about likely rejection (I know relatively it's a small amount of money but I could potentially buy another coin for the price of slabbing two with CGS). Apart from that I don't feel the need for someone else to tell me if one of my coins is nice or not, what they would grade it, or for it to be protected any more than they are at present ...

.

Well, the TPG are telling others whether your coin is nice or not. You may be perfectly happy with the coin, but if you are interested in selling the coin, others may be more interested in buying if your opinions are confirmed by an outside authority. Would you buy an expensive diamond without a GIA certificate (or whatever the equivalent organization is in the UK)? Would you buy a house without a professional home inspection? Would you buy a used car without taking it to a mechanic to verify it's condition? Possibly in each case YOU would, but most people, would feel better about spending a substantial amount of money if the product they were buying was confirmed to have value which the seller says it has. And again, the amount of money involved is the key. If you coins are low value, you probably don't need to have them professionally graded and authenticated. Remember, authentication is another benefit of the TPG. You may be an expert, but unless you're willing to only sell to other experts, and thereby limit your buyer community, having the coin authenticated and graded is a huge benefit when the value of the coin warrants it.

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And depending on which one of their graders you get determines the grade your coin gets.

I often agree with their grading and of course sometimes don't. That would probably be true of most of us. So why pay for the privilege.

mark

Both PCGS and NGC use two to three graders to determine a grade with an additional "finalizer" if there is a difference of opinion.

And you may not agree with the grade assigned. However, my experience is that most of the time, for the two main TPG (I can't speak to CGS), the grade is reasonable within +- one grade. This is a much better situation then before the advent of TPG when buyers were at the mercy of sellers who could grade the coin anything they wanted. When someone has a financial interest in a coin, the tendency is to grade on the high side, sometimes very high side. Ideally, the arrival of TPG has removed this pretty bad aspect of the coin business. I personally, years ago, before the advent of TPG (1970's) bought several coins from a large dealer in NYC. I was inexperienced, and believed the dealer when he told me the coins were "Gem." They certainly looked to my eye like beautiful coins. So I paid a high (at that time) price for them. Only years later did I perchance to examine them with a decent magnifying glass and see the myriad of hairlines on them which, to the naked eye, made them look so reflective at first glance. I doubt they would be given a grade at this point - probably put in a "details" holder. I'm sure the scenario I experienced was replayed thousands of times before TPG.

Edited by marvinfinnley

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I'm guessing you're a fan of slabs, Marvin? Ah, well, to each their own!

We've had endless debates about the pros and cons of it all, and end up getting absolutely nowhere! This would follow exactly the same path if I, or anyone else, responded to it!

Viva la difference! ;)

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Well, the TPG are telling others whether your coin is nice or not. You may be perfectly happy with the coin, but if you are interested in selling the coin, others may be more interested in buying if your opinions are confirmed by an outside authority. Would you buy an expensive diamond without a GIA certificate (or whatever the equivalent organization is in the UK)? Would you buy a house without a professional home inspection? Would you buy a used car without taking it to a mechanic to verify it's condition? Possibly in each case YOU would, but most people, would feel better about spending a substantial amount of money if the product they were buying was confirmed to have value which the seller says it has. And again, the amount of money involved is the key. If you coins are low value, you probably don't need to have them professionally graded and authenticated. Remember, authentication is another benefit of the TPG. You may be an expert, but unless you're willing to only sell to other experts, and thereby limit your buyer community, having the coin authenticated and graded is a huge benefit when the value of the coin warrants it.

I don't particularly disagree Marvin. But it's very much an individual thing I think. As you said earlier:

Reasons to send to TPG:

1. Estimated value is > $1000 AND you intend to sell it at some point (or your heirs will most likely sell it) and desire to appeal to the largest number of buyers to achieve the best price

2. AND You wish to protect the coin from possible environmental or mechanical damage

3. AND its estimated value is condition sensitive such that damage would materially affect its value/appeal to potential buyers

My coins cost mostly under £500, in fact the majority quite a bit under!

I like to be able to pick up my coins. After 300+ years most are not going to be much affected by careful handling so as long as I don't drop one or rub it with something abrasive I think they should be OK.

As for authentication, an increasing proportion of my coins come with provenance. I suspect that the majority of people I might sell my coins to will be reassured enough knowing it came from a named collection or reputable auction house. So far UK based 'investor' type buyers, who might be comforted by a coin being checked by a TPGS, don't seem that interested in the sorts of coins I own.

Is this a nice coin?

post-129-0-71796600-1415315831_thumb.jpg

I suspect those that find it appealing will be prepared to pay for it without needing someone else's endorsement. Those that don't aren't likely to be interested at any price.

.

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I know we've had these discussions endlessly, but the markets have spoken, and if you have the kinds of coins that can benefit from an endorsement by a respected third party, and if you want to sell for the maximum price and appeal to the widest range of potential buyers, then I would recommend slabbing. But of course it's up to you.

I long ago gave up the desire to "touch" my coins as I've seen too many fingerprinted coins. I get pleasure from learning about the historical context of the coins I own, and from admiring their beauty. And, to answer one question, I am a "fan" for all the reasons I've enumerated.

Hammered coins are especially hard to grade to a set of uniform standards as they were subject to a whole range of production issues which cannot be easily described by the numerical grading system. But authenticity is just as important for hammered coins as for milled, so I do think there is a place for an expert opinion if one has high-value hammered coins, and if, and I emphasize the "if" the experts really are expert. Since I don't collect hammered, I don't know how well the TPG handle those coins.

You ask "is this a nice coin?" Since I don't know what you mean by "nice," I'm afraid that I can't answer that question. Those that find it appealing might be prepared to pay for it without a TPG if it costs $200. If it is worth potentially $2000, the I think a buyer would be foolish not to insist upon a TPG. It might be a fake, I can't tell, but someone who has studied the series and seen hundreds of the type, as a grader or consultant at a top TPG has, might be able to tell easily. And, as a buyer, if I were interested in the type and had the means to pay $2000 (or more) for the coin, I would want an expert opinion first. It's as simple as that. A TPG is a form of an insurance policy that you are getting full value for your money. You seem pretty confident of your abilities and expect there are others who would agree with your opinion as to the "worth" of the coin, and perhaps you are and they would, but for an expensive coin, the cost ot that "insurance" is a small fraction of its value, so why wouldn't you want the extra degree of confidence for your buyers? Again, if you have low value coins or don't intend to ever sell, then just forget about TPG. I'm not criticizing anyone's decisions, just trying to lay out why a real collector might also be in favor of TPG. I see many times on forums remarks to the effect that only "investors" would slab coins and that true collectors wouldn't. In my opinion, that couldn't be further from the truth. I've been a collector for almost 60 years, have a large library and always take the opportunity to learn about the history behind the coin. I consider myself a collector.

So that's it from me, and I promise not to continue these remarks. But the dialogue has been entertaining and educational for me and allowed me to sharpen my thoughts about the subject.

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