Slabbing

[Guest Peter]

What is slabbing? Heard it mentioned a couple of times!

[Emperor Oli 0]

Coins are encased in special plastic holders made out of a plastic that does not react with the coin (mylar I think it's called) and turn it horrible. Once encased (or entombed) in the plastic, the grade of the coin is printed on the top of the holder, so is the year minted and denomination along with a barcode. The barcode is unique to that slab and identifies the coin in the grading company's records. It's mainly an American practice done by such companies as PCGS. However, most of the companies (maybe all) won't accept fakes or cleaned coins. In the picture below, the certification number is highlighted, also unique to the slab. It is extremely popular in the US to provide some kind of proof that Mr. X's coin is the grade that Mr. X says. Most people don't like it, especially the Brits. It's quite hard, or so I've heard, to release a coin from its slab.

Edited October 14, 2004 by Emperor Oli

[Sylvester 15]

Plus i like touching coins. I do have one slabbed coin, i must admit i don't like the slab one bit at all.

[Emperor Oli 0]

I also like the feel of the coin. Buying a slabbed specimen is almost like buying some kind of card with the coin it - you can see it but you can't touch it.

[Guest Peter]

Thanks for the info guys. I get the impession that the coin is sealed in the packaging which would mean that you may damage it trying to get it out!

I agree with the sentiment expressed and also would want to (carefully!) handle the coin - it is all part of the attraction of the hobby!

Peter.

[Jennings 1]

Slabbing, as has been pointed out, is slang for a coin that's been sent to a "professional" grading service. Like everything else in America (who, me, cynical?), coin collecting has been taken to the absolute extreme with this hideous practice. This is one of my main reasons for getting out of my own country's coins and into British coins, where things are still much more civilized and gentlemanly (my recent eBay experience with a certain gentleman from Cardiff notwithstanding).

I also enjoy the feel and heft of a coin, which is something utterly lost when they're slabbed. It's like going to the Louvre and seeing the Mona Lisa behind ten feet of armored glass. Somewhat diminshes the experience to me. Also, just because some "professional" at a grading service puts his stamp of approval on a coin, the price usually goes up by several factors for an identical coin. As an example, a given Franklin half dollar with full bell lines (lines across the bottom of the Liberty Bell on the reverse) might sell for $300 'as-is' in a given grade (say BU/MS65). Send the same coin to a grading service, get it 'certified' as an MS65 FBL (full bell lines), and suddenly it's worth $3000. Why? Because one person at the grading service said so. No other reason.

It *is* possible to "crack" a coin out of the slab without damaging it. You just have to know how to do it. It's done all the time when someone sends a coin in and it gets a grade less than what they were hoping for. Often they'll resubmit it in hopes of getting a better grade the second time round. This may be at the same grading service or at a different one. See how the whole process becomes just plain silly very quickly?

Contrary to what these grading services want you to believe, it's still a very subjective process. And the level of nitpickiness that separates a PRF69 from a PRF70 (for example) is so microscopic that I don't believe the average mortal human being can ever tell the difference. I've got one PRF70 Roosevelt dime and one PRF69 (same year, same mint, identical coins), and I'm damned if I can see a single iota of difference between them.

I'm SO thankful this ridiculous practice has not pervaded the British market. I only hope that people don't tire of the American market and start doing the same thing to the British market. I'll be a steadfast holdout for buying "raw" coins!

Farthings forever

J

[Sylvester 15]

You and me both Jennings... slabs probably will come in over here eventually, one dealer is already selling all his coins slabbed.

The way round it is that us anti-slabbers just don't give them custom and keep moving along to those that sell raw coins. Another way is if we all continually slate slabbed coins instill into the newbies that it's an evil practice and make them approach it as so. Slabbing will only take over completely if we resign to it.

[mint_mark 3]

Slabbing as a way to protect a nice coin is one thing... the modern lacquering perhaps

What irritates me is the attempt to measure and model the "population" for that coin. They try and generate statistics to indicate how many coins exist in which states of preservation and then use this to support order of magnitude higher prices for progressively more marginal degrees of "perfection".

This seems unsustainable to me... as a buying collector it is what I think of a coin that matters. I have my own interpretation of perfection which is likely different from Mr PGCS or Ms ANACS. It doesn't really matter how scarce it is... for a high value you need scarcity *and* demand... and that demand means people who want that coin for what it is.

As Jennings said, even though the grading is professional (which just means you pay for it!) it is still subjective. The coins get cracked out of the slabs and regraded and over the years the grade for the same coin goes up (grade inflation). Of course, this makes a mockery of the population statictics as coins get counted several times and newer slabs have higher grades than older slabs.

I appreciate the idea of developing a less subjective and more systematic grading system and I appreciate the idea of wanting to protect coins and store them safely. I don't appreciate the attempt to commodotise the entire market for investment purposes and I hope it never happens here. Maybe in the future we will see anti-slbbing vigilantes... "run free all you Morgan dollars!"

[Sylvester 15]

I've got a sovrin' to crack out sooner or later... i don't want to damage it though.

[Jennings 1]

I've got a sovrin' to crack out sooner or later... i don't want to damage it though.

Cracking a coin isn't really that hard. I use a sharp scalpel blade (like a #11 X-Acto) to gently get into the seam and pop it apart. As soon as you get a small crack in the seam, you can wedge the blade in there and then just proceed around the edge, popping it apart as you go. Do be careful that you don't get to the end and have your coin turn into a Mexican jumping bean and end up tinkling to the floor.

It's really difficult to damage a coin by cracking the slab off of it. Not that it can't be done, just don't get hung up if you want your coin back in your hands.

I agree with Sylvester & Mint Mark - if we as a group refuse to buy slabbed coins for the fantastically inflated prices some people think they should command, then the practice won't be able to catch on in the UK market. And the idea of informing new collectors of the evils of slabbing is a great way to spread the word.

J

[Chris Perkins 223]

Yes, but there are powers at work greater than us.

[Unknown 0]

I appreciate the idea of wanting to protect coins and store them safely.

Slabbing seems to me as a way to make money for nothing...

I decide that I want to grade coins for a living, set up a company and wait for you to send me your own coins, and you pay me to decide how valuable your coin is... a great business... who cares that I know less about coins that you do, how do you know that?

About the protection of coins, what about albums? Or trays? Or cabinets? What is wrong with coin frames? Aren't those good ways to protect the coins?

[Emperor Oli 0]

Aren't slabs virtually indestructible?

[Sylvester 15]

Aren't slabs virtually indestructible?

Rumours are that some are...

But of course there have also been cases of fake slabs, and if i recall correctly companies slabbing slabs, i joked that it would come to the latter on RCC and someone stated it had already happened.

[Jennings 1]

Aren't slabs virtually indestructible?

In a word, no. They're just polystyrene, not Kryptonite. Just plain old clear polystyrene, that's all. They're ultrasonically sealed along the edges, but in the end, they're still two pieces of styrene 'welded' together, and thus can be taken apart. I've done it successfully several times with my own coins, with absolutely no ill effects (except a broken X-Acto blade).

J

[Master Jmd 50]

My opinion...

History should not be sealed away...a historical object is supposed to be historically preserved in its own way. A building can be hundreds of years old, people put supports into them to stop them from falling down or braking (which is okay as it helps to keep the history standing). To me, putting a coin into a capsual is like braking a coin, it stops the coin from being touched, used, damaged. History is not supposed to be protected from every little calamity in life.

[Sylvester 15]

A building can be hundreds of years old, people put supports into them to stop them from falling down or braking

It's a rare building that needs brakes, some have been known to move of their own accord but not fast enough for brakes.

[Jennings 1]

It's a rare building that needs brakes, some have been known to move of their own accord but not fast enough for brakes.

You should come to my house! The upstairs needs brakes

[Chris Perkins 223]

Just to add to this:

I recently purchased 3 slabbed UK coins from the people that I think Kuhli (or another observant American) mentioned before. They have set themselves up as the first seller of slabbed UK coins, and promote themselves by saying that the slabbed bug is just about to come to the UK from the US...So get them cheap while you can!

The 3 coins I purchased with an investor customer in mind were:

1826 Plain edge Proof Half Crown PCGS PR63

1898 Half Crown PCGS MS64

1902 Half Crown PCGS MS63

I got them today and I'm not very pleased because:

The 1826 Half Crown is a nice coin, but it does not have a plain edge. It's fiddley to see with it being surrounded with plastic, but at the right angle I am able to determine that it does not have a plain edge. Nice coin though so I think I'll probably keep it.

The 1898 Half Crown (supposed to be MS64) has the most awful black carbon spot type mark on the truncation and another less severe one on the reverse. It's UNC and lustrious, but there was no mention of the black marks in the listing and the pictures were not good enough to see them.

The 1902 Half Crown has unbelievably ugly patchy toning that is not visible in the picture either. I wil probably keep it.

So my lesson today is that slabbing is all very well, but if you're going to sell slabbed coins you cannot just list the grade and have done with it. Descriptions of many coins are not complete if they just list the grade. And Slabbed coins are hard to take accurate pictures of. And god alone knows how a coin with horrible black marks Obv and Rev got away with MS64! (unless it happened in the slab, which is perhaps more scary!)

And perhaps most importantly; slabbed coins are not always a great investment for people who know nothing about coins. I can imagine lots of people buying coins purely on pictures and PCGS (etc) grade only....Tucking them away and finding when they come to sell them that the coins are less attractive in the eye of a collector than the grade led them to believe.

Any coin investment has to involve someone that knows lots about coins regardless of whether they're slabbed or not. I'm not saying the seller (who shall remain nameless) is dishonest, but I do feel that they are aiming themselves at non experts from the angle that a 'slab with a grade is all you need', and I believe that to be wrong. Also, they seem to be PCGS and NGC authorised...So if they're slabbing the coins themselves that's even more 'hmmmm'.

[Jennings 1]

You definitely (DEFINITELY) shouldn't buy a slabbed coin just based on the grade assigned (or perhaps whether they call it "red" or some other anciliary description). I've got numerous "professionally" graded American coins that any 12 year old child would be able to tell aren't anywhere near the grade listed. Unfortunately, the grade is supposed only to apply to the physical condition of the coin (ie: the wear state of the surfaces), not necessarily to the toning, color, lustre, etc. I've seen some MS67 Unc coins that I wouldn't give you two pennies for (even though the seller wanted hundreds of dollars), since they were so poorly toned (splotchy, patchy, ugly colors). Was the coin still an MS67? Maybe to somebody, but certainly not to me.

Re the experience above with a coin sold as a plain edge when it wasn't - I've had a similar circumstance. Technically, unless the edge is the determinant of a subtype of a particular coin, the condition of the edge isn't supposed to come into play in determining its grade. I disagree with that, especially since I bought an MS65 Washington quarter some years ago that, when I cracked it out of the slab, ended up having huge scoring around the edge, ruining (for me) the appearance of the reeded edge completely.

In short, if you must buy slabbed coins (and I discourage it heartily), by the coin, not the slab.

J

[Coppers 57]

Any coin investment has to involve someone that knows lots about coins regardless of whether they're slabbed or not. I'm not saying the seller (who shall remain nameless) is dishonest, but I do feel that they are aiming themselves at non experts from the angle that a 'slab with a grade is all you need', and I believe that to be wrong. Also, they seem to be PCGS and NGC authorised...So if they're slabbing the coins themselves that's even more 'hmmmm'.

Chris... I recently received in the mails a rather glossy brochure from the same firm clearly aimed at investors with little or no knowledge about coins. To its credit, it does state that "Anyone who does not have the expertise to assess a coin's grade to a professional standard would be well advised not to invest his money in coins." Unfortunately, this sound advice is then followed by the assurance in large, bold type that "THE SITUATION HAS NOW CHANGED." Well...guess what...it really hasn't and in the end those who believe this nonsense has will end up holding the bag -- or in this case the slab.

[wybrit 2]

Let me add some (fill in your adjective) Yank viewpoint to this fine discussion.

I do slab some of the coins I have because they sell better in the US.

The other reason I will choose to slab is to assure the potential buyer that the coin has not been cleaned. The top two slabbing companies, NGC and PCGS, will not slab a cleaned coin (admittedly, mistakes can be and are made).

As I said in an earlier post today, ebay has become a haven for many cleaned and sometimes harsly cleaned British coins, both in the US and in the UK. I've gotten really fed up with buying what I am told is an UNC that turns out to have a ton of hairlines that a seller either doesn't know about or won't tell you about. About 40% of the latter type will deny when told that the coin was cleaned.

Are all graded accurately? No. It is still the buyer's responsibility to decide whether to pursue a slabbed coin.

Nowadays, do I want some assurance that the coin is uncleaned? Yes, because I have spent a lot of time and money returning poor mechandise. I want the chance of getting a dog reduced when I pay up.

[Coppers 57]

I wouldn't put much faith in a slab being a guarantee of anything. Chris' experience merely confirms this. Here in the US (I'm a Yank too), I've seen quite a few coins in slabs, which have had outside help to create toning containing every color in the rainbow as this seems to be a fad among certain collectors here who are willing to pay huge premiums for such coins.

[wybrit 2]

I wouldn't put much faith in a slab being a guarantee of anything. Chris' experience merely confirms this. Here in the US (I'm a Yank too), I've seen quite a few coins in slabs, which have had outside help to create toning containing every color in the rainbow as this seems to be a fad among certain collectors here who are willing to pay huge premiums for such coins.

It still comes down to the buyer making the decision, of course. I'm suspicious about some of these toned coins as well and question why the prices are so high for "monster toning." Slab grades are technical and do not take into account the coin's attractive (or lack of) qualities.

My point remains, though, that cleaning is probably the bigger pariah of this time and largely goes unreported in ebay listings. Slabbing with the two big companies does offer some type of protection, including financial, if the coin turns out to be a problem piece.

While I'm not a big fan of the process (~90% of my UNCs are raw), I do appreciate its advantages.

[Geoff T 3]

You might be interested in/horrified by this e-mail I got today from Lockdales of Ipswich. Apologies if anyone has seen it already. The bold highlight is mine.

www.certifiedgbcoins.com

The most essential factor in determining the value of a coin is its grade of preservation. The process of finding and buying coins in the highest grades is full of pitfalls, even for those able to grade to a decent standard themselves. The British system has always been based on the opinion of the owner or seller of any given coin. This in many cases causes bias for financial motives, and tips the scales against the collector, and the investor.

We deal exclusively with third-party certified mint state British milled coins, ‘slabbed’ and graded by commitee at the most prestigious American grading services PCGS and NGC. This adoption of the US system is something that British collectors and dealers will have to get used to. Once you have seen enough certified material yourself you will begin to apreciate just how rare truly uncirculated coins are, and how subtle yet crucial the difference is between the points of the scale. It runs from 1 to 70. The Mint State scores begin at 60, and so with ten points between the borderline to perfection, you can forget about the vagueries of ‘near Unc’, ‘about Unc’, ‘choice Unc’, ‘as struck’, and the all pervasive ‘Gem BU!!’ (which is almost never the case.)

The coins we deal with are specifically British approx. post 1660. These having been machine made: their grade is quantifiable by comparison. Slabbing is mostly irrelevant in the case of hammered and ancient coins, as their market is driven largely on the basis of tactile historic interest. The handling of mint state milled coins is highly inadvisable as their value is contained within such fragile parameters. The slightest abrasion can mean a world of difference to a connoiseur.

If you wish to test the system for yourself, go to one of the many trade fairs up and down the country. Buy up a number of catalogue priced raw coins graded UNC if you will, send them off to PCGS and await their return. We predict that a number will fall short into the AU50s, one or two will be rejected as having been ‘improved’, and some may reach borderline Mint State. Few will meet the standards of our merchandise.

Post 1797 all coins within the framework of our company are MS63 and above. Pre 1797 we work with coins of at least AU58 or better. This is the ‘choice’ end of the market, and it ensures that whatever quantity of money you put into British coins with us, you can be sure it's going to be on the level that counts the most.

If you have any coins you believe to be in choice uncirculated condition, you can get them slabbed through our membership with PCGS or NGC. To cover our administration and mediation with these services and customs, the charges are thus: £16 per coin up to £175 est. value. £30 per coin up to £3000. £50 each up to £10,000. For higher value items call for a quote.