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PWA 1967

Dont read this if you have not slabbed a cgs coin

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I take very little notice of the CGS valuation, and never quote it when selling a CGS slabbed coin. IF their attribution, authentication and grading is consistent and accurate that is sufficient for me.

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The most honest descriptions from an on-line dealer web site in my experience come from our very own Rob, who I never hesitate to recommend and I have never been disappointed with any of my purchases from him! He just never "bigs" up a coin at all, simply accurately and consistently grades it, with good scans, and points out all the defects!

Sadly the same cannot be said for every coin dealer I have done business with.

Thank you Paul for your kind comments. One thing I have always believed in is to sell a coin on the same basis as you assessed it when you bought it. I don't particularly care what someone calls a coin as it may or may not be in agreement with my own view. I just try not to move the goalposts.

Accuracy and consistency are probably helped if you have emotional attributes of a brick. Society today virtually demands that the populace be nannied and controlled. Everyone has to have empathy with everything else. Laws are continually passed to regulate our behaviour because we are unable (apparently) to do this responsibly ourselves. In a little outpost of the universe called numismatics, we find that some people are brainwashed into insisting that only the views of an anonymous person or two (graders) who say that a coin is so and so good, count. To overcome any residual doubts we may have, an independent body says 'Hey, it really is that good'.

The basic problem is one of personal inadequacy, whether perceived or real and the human desire to be loved/thought highly of in which an individual doesn't take a decision for fear of being wrong or being disliked, whether it be buying a coin in this case, or any number of situations that have hit the news over the years. Think major cockups and subsequent resignations after a healthy payout has been negotiated, brushing ineffectual leadership under the carpet etc, where a new broom taking over means that nobody is really held accountable and nothing changes at the coal face.

Grade inflation is not only a problem of the unscupulous dealer or lenient grader, but also a problem of the individual who wants to own something that may not be easily achievable, and so we get 'for issue' appended to the grade. If everybody wants a mint state or uncirculated coin, then the market will adjust the grades to satisfy the demand by continuing to call an increasing level of wear mint state, such as MS60 on the Sheldon scale, which may not be as good as a British EF. It has long been obvious that the only way to get eyeballs to view a lot on eBay is to call something uncirculated. It is also obvious that an awful lot of people believe in what is said. Sellers are simply pandering to buyers' wishes.

Rant to be continued.....

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'And remember that all equally graded coins are not equal. What we really need is for CGS to form a relationship with WINGS so we can be sure that we're buying a coin we like. That CGS 85 just ain't doing it for me unless it's got a WINGS sticker on it mate. No.'

What we really need to do is get people to connect their brain with their eyes and heart, then there won't be any doubt that we are buying a coin that we like. I get the impression that a significant number of people are buying a coin that they have been told they will/must like. Not the same thing.

Rob,

I get the brain, eyes and heart bit. But in fairness to CGS I don't think they have told us we must like it. Isn't the whole idea to present a consistent numerical grading system.

Now that's where I think it falls down in terms of eye appeal etc. For my liking it's just a little to clinical.

I would like to know do others think it's working? In other words are three graders or whatever achieving the consistency they are aiming for?

Mark

I was being sarcastic about Wings.

Even i got that.

Wings surely must be more American marketing bullshit, just like TPGs. All überhyped by marketing and the American public as we know loves those telemarketers, you can't watch a 1 Hour TV programme without there being 25 commercials during said programme, its brainwashing in essence. (Our american friends on here are excluded) watch this Space, TPGs will soon be carrying adverts on their slabs for a small premium ;) if there's a space they'll make an advert for it. We love ya WINGS :D

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In a way, there ISN'T a conflict of interest between CGS and London Coins, as they perform two different functions : 1) as a TPG, and 2) as an auction house. The conflict would arise if CGS slabs were given undue preference or 'special treatment' in their catalogues, but AFAIK that isn't the case.

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In a way, there ISN'T a conflict of interest between CGS and London Coins, as they perform two different functions : 1) as a TPG, and 2) as an auction house. The conflict would arise if CGS slabs were given undue preference or 'special treatment' in their catalogues, but AFAIK that isn't the case.

I am not suggesting for a moment that their is any suspicion of "undue preference or 'special treatment' ", but London Coins do have a lot of CGS graded coins for sale on their web site (not through auction, so they are dealers not just an auction house), including well over 100 'finest knowns' ...

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In a way, there ISN'T a conflict of interest between CGS and London Coins, as they perform two different functions : 1) as a TPG, and 2) as an auction house. The conflict would arise if CGS slabs were given undue preference or 'special treatment' in their catalogues, but AFAIK that isn't the case.

I am not suggesting for a moment that their is any suspicion of "undue preference or 'special treatment' ", but London Coins do have a lot of CGS graded coins for sale on their web site (not through auction, so they are dealers not just an auction house), including well over 100 'finest knowns' ...

Well, true. As long as they make it clear what the relationship is, I don't see any harm. But if they don't, then there is definitely a 'conflict of interest'.

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There is a difference between finest known and finest graded- CGS should not claim finest known, but finest they have graded.

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Paulus that is one area where I agree there is a perceived conflict. If your coin and their coin achieve similar grade, they have a financial incentive for theirs to take the spot as finest known. I am in no way suggesting this would happen, but it is a perception that clearly exists

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My understanding is that a conflict of interest is not evidence of, and does not even imply, any wrong doing.

Here is the wiki definition

"A conflict of interest is a situation occurring when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation.

The presence of a conflict of interest is independent of the occurrence of impropriety."

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The claim of the finest known coin can simply not be supported based solely on what CGS has graded . Such a claim can only extend to the finest graded by CGS-nothing more.

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The claim of the finest known coin can simply not be supported based solely on what CGS has graded . Such a claim can only extend to the finest graded by CGS-nothing more.

Absolutely, I agree that it is a poor term to use - but I think all the TPGs use it, not just CGS.

With low populations it inevitably leads to silly situations, like this 1826 'finest known' 6d, which is graded as 10 (VG)

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=retailv2_details&uin=0028502

Edited by Paulus

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The claim of the finest known coin can simply not be supported based solely on what CGS has graded . Such a claim can only extend to the finest graded by CGS-nothing more.

Absolutely, I agree that it is a poor term to use - but I think all the TPGs use it, not just CGS.

With low populations it inevitably leads to silly situations, like this 1826 'finest known' 6d, which is graded as 10 (VG)

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=retailv2_details&uin=0028502

So presumably this was just another example of a dodgy coin on ebay?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-R2-1826-SIXPENCE-George-IV-Silver-6d-Six-Pence-coin-S-3814-Garter-522-/271567703887?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D23775%26meid%3D8807698347321956939%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D10165%26rk%3D7%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D180734551614&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=Tv947VbiGYL8mqe7nGt%252BtQqHyqU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

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The claim of the finest known coin can simply not be supported based solely on what CGS has graded . Such a claim can only extend to the finest graded by CGS-nothing more.

Absolutely, I agree that it is a poor term to use - but I think all the TPGs use it, not just CGS.

With low populations it inevitably leads to silly situations, like this 1826 'finest known' 6d, which is graded as 10 (VG)

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=retailv2_details&uin=0028502

It is a rare coin, but inevitably there will be better examples out there.

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I agree, I am just saying that there is inevitably a financial benefit to a slabbed coin being finest known, even if it is a CGS finest known of only a handful of slabbed examples. I was just using it as an example of how a conflict could be perceived to exist.

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While conflict of interest may not mean corruption has or is occurring, it is certainly more likely than not! I mean really, propriety is a term with meaning and I for one would not care to be accused of COI. Not good.

BTW, I have seen some rather overgraded bits in CGS holders as well.....

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Hi vicky silver.

The c.g.s website allows anyone to look and compare a specific coin.This to me allows an opinion on grading and sometimes realistic future value .Please download a picture of a coin you feel has been overgraded.I started this post for help and maybe i will learn from you.

Thanks .

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I'd rather not at this juncture get into specifics but if you look at some of their EF and better slabbed bits you will see. Some while ago I trotted out examples and pictures of a specimen 1935 Jub. crown. Compared CGS85 to PCGS65, NGC65 and raw "handpicked". By far the poorest was the CGS example that even had a corrosion spot, bright green in colour that must have occurred in slab. I frequently see what are admittedly pictures, but representations none the less in LCA auctions that show excessive, dip, or wear or inferior strike for grade.

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I've moved this topic to the TGP Discussions section for neatness PWA.

And while I also fall into the 'have not slabbed a CGS coin' camp, I feel compelled to mention that while I would be very interested to know what CGS would say about a couple of my coins, since they are hammered the £29.99 (plus £10 post) rather puts me off trying it out.

OK, so I'm cheap. But while I can still find pleasing coins for under £80, how worthwhile would it be to spend £40 to get a 'details' grade?

Detector finds with scratches or dints, museum cleaned, even odd spots of verdegris ... I just can't see even some of the rarest of my coins meeting their standards, which are after all based on expectations for later milled.

I'm not saying CGS should compromise their standards .. I'd be happy to have my coins assessed on the basis of wear alone. But I suspect in most cases I'd just be throwing my money away.

If submission was the standard £13.75, or there were 'introductory' offers would I try it out? Maybe.

Just an observation.

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Hi tom..I dont have a clue about hammered coins and would obviously assume they are all different although they would help maintain any significant provenance if graded.Would agree unless something that you could see was really nice,would not see any benefit.

I have bought some pennies and found out the variety was not noted by the dealer.and still feel the price is well worth it.Has bill from c.g.s been making any comments recenttly as he was saying interesting contributions to another grading thread.

Pete

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Please check lot 2851 in the current LCA sale and see if that is not total poppycock as another example of what I'm talking about!!!!

Grade ridiculous and not even IMO a proof in a series I might with all due apologies have some authority on....

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Please check lot 2851 in the current LCA sale and see if that is not total poppycock as another example of what I'm talking about!!!!

Grade ridiculous and not even IMO a proof in a series I might with all due apologies have some authority on....

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?searchlot=2851&searchtype=2&page=Catalogue

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Hi tom..I dont have a clue about hammered coins and would obviously assume they are all different although they would help maintain any significant provenance if graded.Would agree unless something that you could see was really nice,would not see any benefit.

I have bought some pennies and found out the variety was not noted by the dealer.and still feel the price is well worth it.Has bill from c.g.s been making any comments recenttly as he was saying interesting contributions to another grading thread.

Pete

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I was wondering about this for example:

post-129-0-39649300-1410044318_thumb.jpg

Trouble is, I could see it getting anywhere from a 40 up. (Or, given there are a few scratches, a 'details' grade ..!)

Maybe when I win the lottery. Or if ever I decide to sell it. Though in that case, if I was aiming for 'big bucks' I'd be as likely to use NGC and sell through Stacks or Heritage in the US.

As for Bill, I don't remember him posting recently. You could always PM him?

Edited by TomGoodheart

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Nice coin tom what approx value would that be.Vicky silver the coin you posted does not look the best,is that also an active verd spot?

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Sensible question as i dont have a clue.Can you get verd on anything but copper and bronze ?

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