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Asumel

Provenance Question(S)

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I have been reading a lot about provenance lately on here, and it has brought up a few questions/ thoughts.
I understand the general importance of knowing the history of a coin, especially rarer varieties. and i have seen a few of the guys on here say that a coin is ex "smith" collection and before that ex"jones"

But what about the more common coins?

eg; I have a EF double florin that came from a local dealer, who got it from an auction but that is it ( i could dig out the records to go further i suppose)
and for others might just be EF examples from pocket change

I assume that recording provenance is personal preference for the more common coins

I suppose my question is, if at all what do you do when it comes to recording provenance? and what makes/ inspires you to do so?

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I think most of us record where we got coins from Sam. Which is all a provenance is really. OK, maybe not Scott for his bargain bin finds!

For myself I enjoy knowing if a coin I now own was once considered decent enough to be in someone else's collection. It adds to the history of the thing. And if it's just that it came from a field in Lancashire, or someone on eBay, well, I just record that too for consistency.

I doubt that my collection will ever merit much attention. But I guess you never know. And since I enjoy knowing a bit more about the more recent history of my coins, I hope that when they are eventually sold off to other collectors, the information I've put together might amuse someone else. And if not.. well I've had fun researching it all!

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I very rarely record where I've got a coin from. I will only record it if from an auction house or notable collector/dealer, the only other thing that comes into play is a findspot and whether it's published in the BNJ, the Numismatic Chronicle or, more likely, on the EMC.

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Clive! I am disappointed! I thought you were Old Skool! :P

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Clive! I am disappointed! I thought you were Old Skool! :P

Apologies, Richard. If it's any consolation I can often remember where I've bought something... ;)

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Clive! I am disappointed! I thought you were Old Skool! :P

Apologies, Richard. If it's any consolation I can often remember where I've bought something... ;)

Ah, I then wondered whether you were a traditionalist like Rob. And that a provenance had to pertain to something of interest (such as a published coin or recognised collection) rather than just purchasing details?

But of course, purchasing details is all a Murdoch or Lockett ticket might be. It's only later (when a collection has been assembled and disassembled again) that those details become of interest to people like me, maybe ...

I think I shall market mine as the "WhatThe Dickens" collection when I sell it through Lockdales. :lol:

(Just thinking out loud!)

Edited by TomGoodheart

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I buy a coin and if it comes with any such details, then I'll note them. I don't buy slabbed grades or names. But having provenance on coins going well back into the 1700s is an added bonus! :)

I think I shall market mine as the "WhatThe Dickens" collection when I sell it through Lockdales. :lol:

:o

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I think most of us record where we got coins from Sam. Which is all a provenance is really. OK, maybe not Scott for his bargain bin finds!

For myself I enjoy knowing if a coin I now own was once considered decent enough to be in someone else's collection. It adds to the history of the thing. And if it's just that it came from a field in Lancashire, or someone on eBay, well, I just record that too for consistency.

I doubt that my collection will ever merit much attention. But I guess you never know. And since I enjoy knowing a bit more about the more recent history of my coins, I hope that when they are eventually sold off to other collectors, the information I've put together might amuse someone else. And if not.. well I've had fun researching it all!

I am sure there are a few both younger and more seasoned collectors would disagree.

I buy a coin and if it comes with any such details, then I'll note them. I don't buy slabbed grades or names. But having provenance on coins going well back into the 1700s is an added bonus! :)

I think I shall market mine as the "WhatThe Dickens" collection when I sell it through Lockdales. :lol:

:o

That was my thinking, if you could trace back where a coin has been for its lifetime it would add an extra bit of history and interest in that item.

i suppose i was interested in how far people went with it, and its quite interesting to see the range already

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I suppose my question is, if at all what do you do when it comes to recording provenance? and what makes/ inspires you to do so?

The main point is that I like to know the history of a coin, but that would apply to any antique collectable in my possession. I record the collections any one coin has appeared in to get its history. If it was illustrated in a collection from 100 years ago you can rest assured that it was recognised as being special in comparison to its peers. I note the provenance on the reverse of the ticket describing the coin, with extra tickets added when the list doesn't fit. Like Richard, I want to record all details and not just those from named collections.

Whilst it doesn't eliminate the possibility of a coin being a copy, it does help to address the problems of modern copies pretending to be from an old collection. e.g. A few weeks ago I was looking at the so-called Perkin Warbeck groats. The jury is out as to whether these are as claimed or not, but what is certain is that the BM specimen has had copies made in the past as it was possible to identify 2 or possibly 3 individual coins as being identical to their coin. These things matter when the price gets into the thousands as most people take offence at being ripped off.

A useful by-product is the ability to identify what constitutes a good example of a type. On a common coin it is not likely to be too much of a problem, but where you are limited to a couple dozen examples give or take a bit, they are sufficiently scarce to tempt you to buy the first one you see. This is something to avoid unless you appreciate what you are looking at. If you have illustrated examples of a particular variety of coin, it allows you to compare. So not only do you have a history, but you also have a good idea where a coin is in the quality pecking order. The two things run hand in hand. The largest number of images of any one variety I have is about 110 of the Besly A1Truro crowns. Of these, I can say with absolute certainty that I would only find a single digit number acceptable for the collection. This helps to keep your feet on the ground and refrain from buying things you will later regret. There isn't enough time in the day to do this for everything, but the more you can do the better you will be in the long run.

Edited by Rob

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A useful by-product is the ability to identify what constitutes a good example of a type. On a common coin it is not likely to be too much of a problem, but where you are limited to a couple dozen examples give or take a bit, they are sufficiently scarce to tempt you to buy the first one you see. This is something to avoid unless you appreciate what you are looking at. If you have illustrated examples of a particular variety of coin, it allows you to compare. So not only do you have a history, but you also have a good idea where a coin is in the quality pecking order. The two things run hand in hand.

This is true. Researching provenance naturally leads to knowing a bit more about what's available. And while most modern coins can be found in whatever condition you wish there are certain ones, like 1916 pennies I seem to recall, which just weren't generally struck well.

If you wish to aim for the better or best examples then you need to know what condition is generally available to collectors. This becomes increasingly true for older and hammered coins. Like my last acquisition, some series are only available in rubbish to Fine! Dismissing an unattractive example may seem sensible at the time, but you risk discovering a few years on that you turned down one of the better ones to your regret!

Whilst there will always be exceptions, generally the further back you go, coins that were singled out for the privilege of being illustrated in a sales catalogue or journal will still stand out as better than most today.

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I think Rob has covered most points, so I won't repeat anything. Instead I would highlight the tremendous additional pleasure that can be gained from tracking, and in particular discovering, provenance. For me it adds that special ingredient to collecting a coin and in a strange way leads to enjoying it just that little bit more. It also means that once you've made a purchase and added it to the collection, your work may not be done. Looking through old sale catalogues, books, on-line resources etc. may yet lead you to new discoveries.

As an example, I have VIP proof pennies for 1934, 1935 & 1936. The 1935 turned out to be ex. Norweb (thank you Rob!) and, as such, is my favourite though I admit it's not actually the best of the three coins. Since that discovery I've been able to add provenance to many of my coins and enjoy them all the more.

Edited by Accumulator

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I think most of us record where we got coins from Sam. Which is all a provenance is really. OK, maybe not Scott for his bargain bin finds!

For myself I enjoy knowing if a coin I now own was once considered decent enough to be in someone else's collection. It adds to the history of the thing. And if it's just that it came from a field in Lancashire, or someone on eBay, well, I just record that too for consistency.

I doubt that my collection will ever merit much attention. But I guess you never know. And since I enjoy knowing a bit more about the more recent history of my coins, I hope that when they are eventually sold off to other collectors, the information I've put together might amuse someone else. And if not.. well I've had fun researching it all!

Yeah, me too. In fact, when I set up my database (1994?) it contained very few fields back then, but one of them was "Where from". Pitifully, back then, a lot of the entries were the same, chosen from my drop down menu : "Circulation, late 60s" :D

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Yeah, me too. In fact, when I set up my database (1994?) it contained very few fields back then, but one of them was "Where from". Pitifully, back then, a lot of the entries were the same, chosen from my drop down menu : "Circulation, late 60s" :D

.. from humble beginnings ..

I'm sure it's the same for most of us. Modest buys at first, some from ebay, then more from online dealers and then the big world of auction houses. Gradually coins that other people have owned start to creep in and provenance starts to mean a bit more ...

.. some of us actually seek out such coins. For others I guess if the coin is pleasing it's neither here nor there where it lived 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Horses for courses, as always.

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Of course for me provenance takes second stand to the actual history of the coin itself. Best thing is that provenance better certifies a coins authenticity, especially for coins that are known to have copies. However provenance is only for rare coins.

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I have a book that I record who I bought from and how much, and I have my original entries from when I first collected and then sold all my collection including some of the invoices. Which is just as well because when my computer fell ill and the doc could not help it had to be put down and I had to re enter all into my coin manage database for the second time!

I also like to see the information that one dealer gives for the ones I have from him where he has weight and diameter as well as some other information.

Geoff.

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I have a book that I record who I bought from and how much, and I have my original entries from when I first collected and then sold all my collection including some of the invoices. Which is just as well because when my computer fell ill and the doc could not help it had to be put down and I had to re enter all into my coin manage database for the second time!

I also like to see the information that one dealer gives for the ones I have from him where he has weight and diameter as well as some other information.

Geoff.

Obviously not a Time Machine or Dropbox user... oops.

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I have a book that I record who I bought from and how much, and I have my original entries from when I first collected and then sold all my collection including some of the invoices. Which is just as well because when my computer fell ill and the doc could not help it had to be put down and I had to re enter all into my coin manage database for the second time!

I also like to see the information that one dealer gives for the ones I have from him where he has weight and diameter as well as some other information.

Geoff.

Obviously not a Time Machine or Dropbox user... oops.

Not all of us have access to Dr. Who's Tardis. For this mere mortal, time is a steadily advancing non-reversible thing unless someone can invent something that genuinely works.

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I have a book that I record who I bought from and how much, and I have my original entries from when I first collected and then sold all my collection including some of the invoices. Which is just as well because when my computer fell ill and the doc could not help it had to be put down and I had to re enter all into my coin manage database for the second time!

I also like to see the information that one dealer gives for the ones I have from him where he has weight and diameter as well as some other information.

Geoff.

Obviously not a Time Machine or Dropbox user... oops.

Not all of us have access to Dr. Who's Tardis. For this mere mortal, time is a steadily advancing non-reversible thing unless someone can invent something that genuinely works.

Rather than 'Time Machine' (the Apple Mac backup system) I use Carbonite, which is an entirely automated on-line backup service. Excellent!

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Aren't all these external backup systems run by governments so they can keep tabs on everyone and have all the info in one place? i.e.run by the last people on the planet you would trust.

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Possibly, though Carbonite is in the US and any government would struggle to find much of interest in my backup files!

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I was a disaster manager in a past life and risk assessment particularly of telecomms networks is part of my DNA. I'd be a bit doubtful about relying too heavily on any external sources, particularly web based ones for back up - there are just too many things that can and do go wrong. I'm a great believer in belt and braces plus a bit more, so I back up my database (Excel) onto my wife's PC, plus onto an separate external hard drive. And if the house burns down while I'm away and all three copies are detroyed, there's still the 2 gig memory stick in my pocket!

Simples!!

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Aren't all these external backup systems run by governments so they can keep tabs on everyone and have all the info in one place? i.e.run by the last people on the planet you would trust.

Dropbox is private. And while the 2GB free option doesn't give you a whole lot of online space, so it's no good for music, pictures or videos, it is ample for my word processing documents, spreadsheets, databases, etc, plus all my browser bookmarks, address book, notepad, and small web pictures from Facebook etc. And I've still got half of the 2GB left.

"Time Machine" is an automatic backup system for Macs - plug in a 500 GB external USB hard drive, nominate it as your computer's backup disk, and then just forget all about it. It keeps hourly backups for a day, daily backups for a month, and weekly? monthly? backups for as long as you have room on the disk.

Like Dave, I'm a 'belt and braces' man - I also have a bag of memory sticks ranging from 2GB (personal documents) up to 64GB (my iTunes library) :D

Edited by Peckris

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I have to admit I have tried a couple of external methods. I do back up across my own network, but have tried Just Cloud, who were an absolute nightmare, it was so cumbersome and difficult to use. I have recently given Microsoft Sky Drive a go and have been very impressed. It runs in the background and updates files in realtime. The original files remain on your PC and are backed up to the cloud, It also allows me to view and edit my files on my iphone and ipad and then updates them on my PC. Cost is also very good you get 8GB free, Then I think it was about £30 a year for an extra 100GB. And you can literally back up anything.

Support has been very good...and if the CIA want to have a browse through my files they are welcome :D

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Well thats a bugger, its the NSA, not the CIA you Need to watch out for

Edited by azda

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