Provenance Searching

[rpeddie 119]

Having a fairly unique and relatively easily identifiable(hammered mainly) how does one go about searching the provenance of the coin?

does this necessarily require the last hundred years of catalogues or is there an easier method?

thanks

[Accumulator 52]

Rob's the expert on this, but you could try searching mcsearch.info and invaluable.com to look for sales over the past few years.

[TomGoodheart 373]

If you're lucky your coin will be a type only collected by a certain number of individuals, come with some sort of information, such as a previous collector's ticket or an idea of when it was bought by the previous owner. That way you can narrow it down a bit.

Or if it is a particularly rare type then the number of examples will be small and occasions when one was sold hopefully noted.

Recent sales can be searched via the internet as Accumulator says. Add CoinArchives.com, mcsearch's sister site acsearch and of course auction houses own archive of catalogues to those mentioned, though few web resources will go back much more than 15 years. If you're lucky a member here might recognise a coin if you post a photo. Otherwise, a good supply of auction and dealer catalogues, plenty of coffee and patience might be your only option.

Hammered are easier than milled coins if you have catalogues that are illustrated due to each being unique. Unfortunately the further back you go, the less coins tended to be illustrated and even ones we would now consider to be really nice examples, or to be quite rare, were often not shown in catalogues or were sold with others as part of a mixed lot with minimal description.

Edited April 9, 2014 by TomGoodheart

[azda 973]

It may also help to post your Picture as somebody may well recognise it and help you out.

[Peter 615]

Don't forget a lot come straight out of the ground.

[rpeddie 119]

thanks for the help

I am looking for 2 different coins, the First one i know to be an H.M.S Association(1707) wreck coin and can possibly have a sale date of at the earliest July 14th,1969 (Sotheby & Co.)

link to catalogue i found for sale

This was really the one that got me thinking about provenance searching as it would be the easiest to look for the history of(its been in the sea for ~250 years before that i am certain of )

[rpeddie 119]

and the second is my Scottish Unite(which i got off the flea bay and dont really know where to start looking for it)

Its a pretty uniquely shaped and easily identifiable hammered so should techically be able to find it?

also is there any online resources available to go through shipwreck recoveries? ive looked at the detecting and http://www.wrecksite.eu/ but they dont seem to tell you what they found on the ships that are recovered(even the paid service doesnt seem to have it) are there catalogues for this too?

thanks for any help

[Rob 3,000]

thanks for the help

I am looking for 2 different coins, the First one i know to be an H.M.S Association(1707) wreck coin and can possibly have a sale date of at the earliest July 14th,1969 (Sotheby & Co.)

link to catalogue i found for sale

1685 HC (Medium) (Small).jpg

This was really the one that got me thinking about provenance searching as it would be the easiest to look for the history of(its been in the sea for ~250 years before that i am certain of )

The salvage from the Association was sold over 9 or 10 sales plus there was a lot of material that was sold elsewhere. You might be lucky to find it illustrated as the coin is one of the better ones. The Scottish unite might be illustrated, but if from a detector find is unlikely, unless recent.

[Nicholas 51]

I thought I knew that unite.

Spink Auction 7018. June 27 2007 Lot 193

DNW 7 October 2003, lot 987

Look these up and the history may unfold...

Good luck

[azda 973]

I thought I knew that unite.

Spink Auction 7018. June 27 2007 Lot 193

DNW 7 October 2003, lot 987

Look these up and the history may unfold...

Good luck

Unite, mm. thistle, 9.83g/2h (SCBI 35, 1343-4; S 5463). Jewellers mark by reverse mintmark, otherwise good very fine (£1,000-1,200) Sold for £1050 hammer Edited April 10, 2014 by azda

[rpeddie 119]

that's crazy thanks! thought i had checked Spink for this obviously not as thorough as i thought

found the price for the DNW one but what's the possibility of getting a PDF of the catalogue?

how far back did DNW offer PDF catalogues?

thanks for the help didn't think i would get any results

[Nicholas 51]

My pleasure. It's a lovely coin. Don't mind the ragged edge. Nick

Edited April 10, 2014 by Nicholas

[TomGoodheart 373]

Don't know about pdf. You've seen the archive listing I presume? http://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/catalogue-archive/lot.php?department=Coins&lot_id=54025

And Alistair Mackay has a paper catalogue for Oct 2003 with prices: http://www.coinmac.com/Numismatic_Books-utf8.html Maybe call him to check it's the right one first. Personally I prefer my library to be actual catalogues rather than virtual!

[rpeddie 119]

thanks for all the help with this tracked it back to 2003 and to Dr James Davidson.

How would i go about looking for it before then? is that where a hoard of catalogues comes in handy?

In persoal experience how far back is it possible to track an item just using online resources?

Also sorry for all the questions but whats the furthest back you guys/gals have personally tracked a coin?

[Rob 3,000]

Early 1700s

[pies 33]

If I had a hat on I'd take it of for you guys. Incredible how you do it

[rpeddie 119]

Early 1700s

how many auctions did the poor thing go in since then?

[Rob 3,000]

Early 1700s

how many auctions did the poor thing go in since then?

18

[TomGoodheart 373]

thanks for all the help with this tracked it back to 2003 and to Dr James Davidson.

How would i go about looking for it before then? is that where a hoard of catalogues comes in handy?

In persoal experience how far back is it possible to track an item just using online resources?

Also sorry for all the questions but whats the furthest back you guys/gals have personally tracked a coin?

Online? In most instances I doubt there's much that can be found much prior to 1999 ish without a good deal of effort. Christies have a few Spink sales archived back to then. I don't know how far back CoinArchives professional goes. But at $600 subscription it's not really relevant to me!

Most of my provenances have relied on catalogues or tickets. My furthest back is to 1920, which by chance I spotted in the British Numismatic Journal (which are scanned back to 1903) and with Rob's help was then traced to a sale in 1913. When the coin was listed by Mark Rasmussen no provenance was mentioned, so I got lucky to recognise it.

[rpeddie 119]

nice one quite a feat im impressed

not to pry too much but what coins were you able to track that far back?

[TomGoodheart 373]

nice one quite a feat im impressed

not to pry too much but what coins were you able to track that far back?

Sadly the big ding made it much easier to spot!

[Accumulator 52]

I've been amazed at how many rarer coins are sold without any provenance, when a little basic research by the seller would have unearthed something significant. Several of my purchases, both from noted dealers and major auction houses have subsequently revealed a provenance of which the seller seemed blissfully unaware. I'm certainly not complaining though!

[azda 973]

that's crazy thanks! thought i had checked Spink for this obviously not as thorough as i thought

found the price for the DNW one but what's the possibility of getting a PDF of the catalogue?

how far back did DNW offer PDF catalogues?

thanks for the help didn't think i would get any results

So which auction did you buy the Unite from rpeddie, You have discovered 2, and so where you bought it from would add to the provenance unless you bought it from either of those 2 auctions?

Edited April 12, 2014 by azda

[rpeddie 119]

i bought it from ebay don't know if that would really count as a proper provenance though?

[TomGoodheart 373]

i bought it from ebay don't know if that would really count as a proper provenance though?

Gives you a seller's name, price and date to add to the records. That'll do!