England Frightened Of Scottish Indepemdence

[Accumulator 52]

You can't pay a national debt when you don't use the currency. As for Salmond, he's just a staunch Nationalist and i think he's getting pretty pissed off with all the scaremongering by Westminster.

I shall be gutted if we lose, having to go cap in Hand to those Tory *******s who are already licking the cream from the bowl and greasing their friends Palms makes me sick to the stomach

I'm with you there Dave, but for me it's the Tory b******s in the Home Counties who should declare independence and leave the rest of the UK to everyone else including the Scots.

Your part of the UK would be a bit short of income if they did. Elmbridge in Surrey (£1.18bn) alone pays more income tax than Glasgow (£898m), Sheffield (£812m), Aberdeen (£728m), Cardiff (£589m) and Newcastle (£443m).

Elmbridge in Surrey may have more population, Scotland has a mere 5 million population. The same said elmbridge may have many rich residents compared to the millionaires that reside in Scotland. Bear in mind how much Scotland pays in oil tax. If this was taken into account and it did'nt head into the Westminster coffers then we'd probably be paying more than the UK put together.

AC, i mean we as i'm Scottish, whether i can or cannot vote. Being able to vote or not does not determine who i am. oOh and if we combined Aberdeen and Glasgow the combined tax would be more than Elmbridge. 1.6 Billion or so. Wonder how mamy people live in Elmbridge Surrey who work as Stockbrokers or Play Professional Football or who own 1 million pound plus houses. Lets keep it into perspective

I thought all the Scottish millionaires live in Germany these days, Dave?

[azda 973]

You can't pay a national debt when you don't use the currency. As for Salmond, he's just a staunch Nationalist and i think he's getting pretty pissed off with all the scaremongering by Westminster.

I shall be gutted if we lose, having to go cap in Hand to those Tory *******s who are already licking the cream from the bowl and greasing their friends Palms makes me sick to the stomach

I'm with you there Dave, but for me it's the Tory b******s in the Home Counties who should declare independence and leave the rest of the UK to everyone else including the Scots.

Your part of the UK would be a bit short of income if they did. Elmbridge in Surrey (£1.18bn) alone pays more income tax than Glasgow (£898m), Sheffield (£812m), Aberdeen (£728m), Cardiff (£589m) and Newcastle (£443m).

But this will be why elmbridge surrey pay more tax http://www.theguardian.com/money/shortcuts/2013/may/20/elmbridge-surrey-britains-beverly-hills

If you want to Tell a story Nick, tell it all and not just the bits to suit the subject. There's also the strange point that Cardiff have a population 346,000 and Newcastle 265,000 yet aberdeen with a much smaller population of 220,000 pay wayyyyyy much more than those 2 cities. Strange that eh Sheffield also has 551,000 population, so Aberdeen again is paying more than this city

Edited February 16, 2014 by azda

[Gary D 76]

Mr Barosso seems to have put his two-pennorth into the independence debate in his answers to Andrew Marr. The thing I find most compelling about what he said is that as he's a politician, he will have been very clear in advance on what he should say about the question of Scottish Independence and the EU. From my perspective, I'm sure he will have taken that guidance before coming to the UK, and I'm of the view that what he said is very much the official position of the EU. I very much doubt that he said what he said off the top of his head.

I assume the rational goes. The UK is part of the EU so if Scotland leaves the UK it is also leaving the EU. It would then be in the position of having to reapply and take its turn with any other East European countries in the queue. Re-entry could take years. So it will be a new Scottish passport and work visas for any scots wanting to live and work in England/Wales and NI. Of cause then the there's the whole immigration debate, we can't keep the Romanians out but we could the Scots.

[azda 973]

AC there are no rich Scotsmen living in Germany, only rich old Germans from old German Geld, they tax me to much for me to be rich

[azda 973]

Just a curious question Gary regarding the EU thing, how would you identify someone who is Scottish working in Englamd or elsewhere inside the EU? I for instance have a British Passport, it has a fair amount of years to run before it Runs out, but the same problems would therefor Apply to English persons working in Scotland would it not? Lol

[Rob 3,002]

It's the concentration of high value housing and the steep increase in their prices that is the main difference between the south-east and the rest of the country. Relatively small LTV mortgages on the primary home is why so many can have a second home in Dorset or even down to Devon and Cornwall.

Whilst there are clearly many wealthy people living in the south-east, I often wonder what percentage of total wealth is tied up in property, the amount of gearing per household and how much free capital in physical £sd is available, as the latter will buy non-housing items at much the same price across the country. A stark example of the difference came out a couple days ago when a couple announced they were retiring and selling the business up here and their house and moving near Henley to be close to their family. £190K for the house here, over 1/2 a million for a smaller bungalow down south, albeit in a fairly desirable area.

[Gary D 76]

Just a curious question Gary regarding the EU thing, how would you identify someone who is Scottish working in Englamd or elsewhere inside the EU? I for instance have a British Passport, it has a fair amount of years to run before it Runs out, but the same problems would therefor Apply to English persons working in Scotland would it not? Lol

Yes it would work both ways but there are only 400,000 people born in England living in Scotland against 800,000 born in Scotland living in England. So they know where you are. So I guess when your passport runs out , it does record where you were born, you would either apply for a Scottish passport or take the English test and pay your £800 for a UK passport.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Gary D

[Accumulator 52]

It's the concentration of high value housing and the steep increase in their prices that is the main difference between the south-east and the rest of the country. Relatively small LTV mortgages on the primary home is why so many can have a second home in Dorset or even down to Devon and Cornwall.

Whilst there are clearly many wealthy people living in the south-east, I often wonder what percentage of total wealth is tied up in property, the amount of gearing per household and how much free capital in physical £sd is available, as the latter will buy non-housing items at much the same price across the country. A stark example of the difference came out a couple days ago when a couple announced they were retiring and selling the business up here and their house and moving near Henley to be close to their family. £190K for the house here, over 1/2 a million for a smaller bungalow down south, albeit in a fairly desirable area.

I know Elmbridge and the surrounding areas of Surrey well, having been born bought up there. In my youth there were some very wealthy pockets (St George's Hill, comes to mind) but nothing like the concentration of money that's there now. I often return to visit family and it's not just the huge houses with swimming pools in gated estates, but the cars and the private schools and the high end shops and expensive eateries…. and the list goes on. These generally aren't people struggling with unmanageable mortgages or high LTV ratios. It seems they're paying their fair share of tax too, which of course is only right.

[azda 973]

Just a curious question Gary regarding the EU thing, how would you identify someone who is Scottish working in Englamd or elsewhere inside the EU? I for instance have a British Passport, it has a fair amount of years to run before it Runs out, but the same problems would therefor Apply to English persons working in Scotland would it not? Lol

Yes it would work both ways but there are only 400,000 people born in England living in Scotland against 800,000 born in Scotland living in England. So they know where you are. So I guess when your passport runs out , it does record where you were born, you would either apply for a Scottish passport or take the English test and pay your £800 for a UK passport.

I think mine has 10 years to run, we should be back in the EU by then this saving me the £800

[Rob 3,002]

The main difference is still the huge houses in gated estates. We have a handful up here in the more select areas, but nothing like the number down south. Gated houses are common enough, replete with the obligatory expensive motor or three outside. Mind you, not having a swimming pool could be a blessing in disguise given the weather.

One bizarre feature which you probably don't see so much is the terraced house with 100Ks worth of cars sticking out into the road from the postage stamp area in front of the house. Not infrequently the cars cost more than the property is worth.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Rob

[DaveG38 385]

It seems to me that Mr Barosso

Mr Barosso seems to have put his two-pennorth into the independence debate in his answers to Andrew Marr. The thing I find most compelling about what he said is that as he's a politician, he will have been very clear in advance on what he should say about the question of Scottish Independence and the EU. From my perspective, I'm sure he will have taken that guidance before coming to the UK, and I'm of the view that what he said is very much the official position of the EU. I very much doubt that he said what he said off the top of his head.

I assume the rational goes. The UK is part of the EU so if Scotland leaves the UK it is also leaving the EU. It would then be in the position of having to reapply and take its turn with any other East European countries in the queue. Re-entry could take years. So it will be a new Scottish passport and work visas for any scots wanting to live and work in England/Wales and NI. Of cause then the there's the whole immigration debate, we can't keep the Romanians out but we could the Scots.

It seems to me to be a bit more interesting than that. As it currently stands, trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK is conducted across an open border. That would also, of course, be the case if Scotland were to be an EU member in its own right as an independent state. However, if Scotland votes to leave the UK, then as Mr Barosso says, and I see no reason not to believe him as he's the head of the Commission, that would leave the interesting situation where the border between Scotland and rUK would be an external border to the EU.

If we then believe Mr Barosso when he says that Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU and this might take years and might not happen at all, what happens to the border in the meantime? For people desperate to get into the EU, as currently constituted, the Scotland/England border would be one of the most porous in the EU and would likely result in a new and different route for entry. In this situation, I can't see any alternative but for there to be border controls between the two countries. The SNP says it won't happen, but my analysis here suggests that there might not be any option for the rUK as it would become a frontier state of the EU. Of course, Scotland might patrol its borders in a very efficient way, but I'm guessing that the Scottish government will have other priorities and it might come down to England initiating border controls.

Mr Barosso's statement also raises interesting questions about trade between Scotland as a non-EU state and rUK which would be an EU state. I don't know much about the treaties that guarantee free movement within the EU, but that free flow presumably does not apply across international borders from outside the EU. That would mean customs controls at the borders with Scotland. It might also affect not just the currency for import and export, but also the price of goods, depending on what the trade tariffs are for imports into the EU. In short, it may be cheaper for rUK companies to import from within the EU than it would be to continue to buy from Scotland.

None of this, if it came about, would be good for Scotland.

[azda 973]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

[Accumulator 52]

The main difference is still the huge houses in gated estates. We have a handful up here in the more select areas, but nothing like the number down south. Gated houses are common enough, replete with the obligatory expensive motor or three outside. Mind you, not having a swimming pool could be a blessing in disguise given the weather.

One bizarre feature which you probably don't see so much is the terraced house with 100Ks worth of cars sticking out into the road from the postage stamp area in front of the house. Not infrequently the cars cost more than the property is worth.

That reminds me of a brief time back in the 80's I spent in Texas. The guy I was working with took me for a drive through a predominantly Mexican area. Row upon row of poor, run down housing stock but with latest Cadillac or Buick parked proudly outside!

I guess we all choose our priorities. Some might spend more on coins than their house!

[Rob 3,002]

The main difference is still the huge houses in gated estates. We have a handful up here in the more select areas, but nothing like the number down south. Gated houses are common enough, replete with the obligatory expensive motor or three outside. Mind you, not having a swimming pool could be a blessing in disguise given the weather.

One bizarre feature which you probably don't see so much is the terraced house with 100Ks worth of cars sticking out into the road from the postage stamp area in front of the house. Not infrequently the cars cost more than the property is worth.

That reminds me of a brief time back in the 80's I spent in Texas. The guy I was working with took me for a drive through a predominantly Mexican area. Row upon row of poor, run down housing stock but with latest Cadillac or Buick parked proudly outside!

I guess we all choose our priorities. Some might spend more on coins than their house!

[DaveG38 385]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access at all for some reason, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc.

Edited February 16, 2014 by DaveG38

[Peter 615]

There are a few council estates in Bury St Eds where the plebs have their 30k 4x4 or Slk's parked outside.Must be their PPI claims.

I think most are Scottish.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Peter

[Accumulator 52]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access for some reasons, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc.

Maybe, but we'll all know where to go for our duty-free whisky!

[azda 973]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access at all for some reason, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc.

Why the Rest of the World? Do we stop trading on a worldwide scale if we're not in the EU. Thats quite a Statement to make

[azda 973]

There are a few council estates in Bury St Eds where the plebs have their 30k 4x4 or Slk's parked outside.Must be their PPI claims.

I think most are Scottish.

No Peter, they'll be footballers

[azda 973]

Elmbridge, not a good example of the UK tax buden Nick

The wealthy district of Elmbridge in Surrey, just off the M25, paid more in tax in 2010/11 than Google did – 200 times more. This leafy haven for high-net-worth individuals – Gary Lineker and Cliff Richard live there – paid a total of £1.18bn in income tax, which is more than the city of Glasgow. That works out to about £16,100 in tax per resident, much higher than the British average of £4,300.

The growing number of rich celebs colonising the area have earned Elmbridge the nickname "the Beverly Hills of Britain", but how does it compare with its California counterpart?

Elmbridge, Surrey

Type of entity: local-government district with borough status; shares a border with Greater London.

Population: 131,400.

Area: 37.2 sq miles.

History: the area appears in the Domesday book (1086) as Amelebridge. The district was created in 1972.

House price (average): £623,576.

Famous residents: Jamie Redknapp, Ringo Starr, Elton John, Chris Tarrant, Shilpa Shetty, Ronnie Wood, Jenson Button.

Annual events: "Noise Action Week. The Elmbridge Borough Council Environmental Services Team is currently highlighting noise issues and promoting a range of practical solutions.

Twinned with: nothing.

Recycling batteries: household batteries can be put in the collection bin in reception at the community centre in Esher.

[azda 973]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access for some reasons, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc.

Maybe, but we'll all know where to go for our duty-free whisky!

You'll need a Visa AC

[DaveG38 385]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access at all for some reason, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc.

Why the Rest of the World? Do we stop trading on a worldwide scale if we're not in the EU. Thats quite a Statement to make

Well, the EU is a trading bloc with its own internal rules. Trade with non-EU countries is I believe carried out on entirely different terms, so if Scotland were outside the EU the terms of its trading with the EU might well be different from what they are at present. In this case, it seems to me there would have to be a border and customs etc.

[Accumulator 52]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access for some reasons, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc.

Maybe, but we'll all know where to go for our duty-free whisky!

You'll need a Visa AC

Visa cost: 6,000 McPooonds…. Or about 20p in English money.

[azda 973]

Correct, just like America and China who also Trade with the EU, so as i said, i can only see obstacles being put in front of an Independent Scotland during the run up. Will be nice to become a Dubai type oasis with all our oil reserves, wonder how much an Independent Scotland would charge England for some of the Black stuff, bespring in mind we won't be part of the EU at that point

[azda 973]

I believe there are borders still in EU countries regardless of what member States say, so it should'nt be a biggie between Scotland and England

If Scotland were to become a member of the EU automatically then I'd agree with you. However, if Barosso is right and Scotland's accession were delayed by the average of around 8 years or so, or didn't manage to gain access for some reasons, then the border between Scotland and England would become a border between the EU and the rest of the world. That would surely bring all the controls associated with an international border i.e. border controls, customs etc.

Maybe, but we'll all know where to go for our duty-free whisky!

You'll need a Visa AC

Visa cost: 6,000 McPooonds…. Or about 20p in English money.

I don't really know if you realise this AC but Scotland actually has its own currency and its pounds, the same pound as England, except England does'nt Take our notes, come the reveloution my friend