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azda

England Frightened Of Scottish Indepemdence

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I don't know about being frightened of Scottish indepemdence, but I sure am wary of having to adopt Scottish spelling. :huh:

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How come we in England get no vote anyway? splitting the Union is a major constitutional change

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It's never been thought through properly.

Imagine the outcries and accusations of racism if we (England) held a referendum for independence from Scotland, in which the Scottish were denied a vote! It would never be allowed to happen.

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I have no issue with it. It should be the aspiration of every country to be truly independent (as far as that is possible). For sure, any split would cause some difficulties - constitutional, economic and political - but that shouldn't affect the choice of becoming independent.

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It's never been thought through properly.

Imagine the outcries and accusations of racism if we (England) held a referendum for independence from Scotland, in which the Scottish were denied a vote! It would never be allowed to happen.

Interesting point!

Also, what would the situation be if England desired to separate from the UK, if its leaving were to plunge other country members into potential economic strife (not saying it would)?

Just for argument's sake, let's say the population of Wales were economically a drain on resources (I'm not saying it is, of course), and England independently voted to go it alone, thinking itself to be financially better off, and then Wales were to go bankrupt and spiral into a state of civil unrest?

Who would be the bad guys?

I've just read the above...man does it sound cowardly (I'm not saying it is, of course! ;)) :D

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How come we in England get no vote anyway? splitting the Union is a major constitutional change

Becaise its up tot h Scots to decided David. That wouöd be like asking the Welsh to also vote Or the Irish. We're not splitting the Union, we're taking back what was once ours anyway and something which Westminster has tried to keep for over 300 years. Scotland is'nt Englands toy to Play with like they did with the poll tax where it was started in Scotland 1 year before The Rest of the UK.

Scotland has been westminsters Guinea pigs for Long enough. What i find interesting is WHY Westminster are resorting to smearing the Scottish "yes" campaign. The sooner we rid ourselves of the bottom feeders that reside at Westminster the better.

Ian Duncan Smith, don't even get me started on him. Stephen, we'd welsome England Voting but we'd be too afraid you'd vote to stay in a union.

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I'm not bothered either way, we don't need Scotland anymore, we've got Poland now. Need a big infrastructure project to boost the economy, refurbish Hadians Wall, that'll keep the Pols busy for a little while.

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How come we in England get no vote anyway? splitting the Union is a major constitutional change

Becaise its up tot h Scots to decided David. That wouöd be like asking the Welsh to also vote Or the Irish. We're not splitting the Union, we're taking back what was once ours anyway and something which Westminster has tried to keep for over 300 years. Scotland is'nt Englands toy to Play with like they did with the poll tax where it was started in Scotland 1 year before The Rest of the UK.

Scotland has been westminsters Guinea pigs for Long enough. What i find interesting is WHY Westminster are resorting to smearing the Scottish "yes" campaign. The sooner we rid ourselves of the bottom feeders that reside at Westminster the better.

Ian Duncan Smith, don't even get me started on him. Stephen, we'd welsome England Voting but we'd be too afraid you'd vote to stay in a union.

That's just politics nowadays. It just so happens that the three main Westminster parties all support 'No', but for different reasons. Labour and Lib Dems would lose too many MPs if Scotland left the union, so they won't support independence and the Conservatives would much rather have the North Sea oil income staying as part of UK plc, so they won't support it either. It's always about vested interests.

Edited by Nick
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My son supports independence on the grounds that he often works out of Aberdeen, so it would boost his days out of the country for tax reasons. :)

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As I said earlier as English I'm easy either way. I do think though if there is a break it should be a complete break, non of this Salmon's want his cake and eat it. It should be a complete break, laws, finances, security the lot. In one way I would like to see the No win just to see Salmon fall on his face. To me he comes over far too smarmy for my liking, I guess it's the politician shining through.

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As far as I am concerned, its a matter for the Scots, even though it has implications for the rest of us. Because of those implications, my view is that the Rump-UK government should play hardball with Scotland once independent. For instance I don't want the Bank of England to be the lender of last resort, nor do I want a currency union. As far as I am concerned Scotland can use the pound if it chooses, but the UK government should give it no say in fiscal/monetary policy. If the SNP reneges on its portion of the UK debt as a result then fiscal policy changes should take place in England to ensure that the UK is divested of liability for Scottish assets. For instance, the bank guarantee scheme and losses of RBS and HBOS should become Scotland's to manage not England's.

Similarly if the Rump-UK taxpayer has to pay the enormous costs of relocation of the submarine fleet from Faslane, a cost forced upon us by Scotland, then any contracts for Scottish companies should be withdawn, presumably to Devonport or Portsmouth. In other words, if the Scots want independence that's fine, but we don't owe them anything either - we act in our own interests, and not theirs. And if that brings difficulties for Scotland well so be it.

Divorce is very messy and leaves bitterness, something that those who support independence don't seem to factor into their considerations. For all I know there may well be a major backlash against the Scots from large portions of the public who don't take too kindly to being given the biggest 'two fingers' in history. That backlash may become worse if as I suspect the SNP use every negative issue arising in Scotland post-independence, as an excuse to blame the UK government for. The law of unintended consequences will likely come into play and it won't be pretty. The idea that we'll all be happily living in perfect harmony, with everything all fluffy and lovely and nice is in my view laughable.

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"Please enable cookies in your browser to display the rest of this article." Since I only block cookies from "third parties and advertisers", what the feck is it talking about?

As for Scottish independence, although I don't want it to happen, if it does happen and England / Wales vote to leave the EU, then I hope Scotland votes to stay in, leaving the pathetic SouthEast 'Little Englanders' increasingly isolated on the edge of the Atlantic with nothing but dreams of former Empire to keep themselves warm on the long long cold nights of self-deluded self-importance.

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As I said earlier as English I'm easy either way. I do think though if there is a break it should be a complete break, non of this Salmon's want his cake and eat it. It should be a complete break, laws, finances, security the lot. In one way I would like to see the No win just to see Salmon fall on his face. To me he comes over far too smarmy for my liking, I guess it's the politician shining through.

Lol at finances Gary, English Shops won't take Scottish banknotes as it is anyway, so we're already halfway there ;)

Although saying all that, it will open a whole new collecting area again for Scottish mints :)

Edited by azda

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Dave, i have to say, its England who don't want Scotland to leave, not the other way around and there is obvious reasons to that. We pay more in tax to Westminster than we receive back pro head of population yet we can afford to have free Health prescriptions and University fees (for those living and being Scottish) Weatminster and all those who reside there are just a bunch of leeches and parasites sucking the life out of the people they Govern dipping their hands in the sweetie jar.

Just a few days back i was reading that a Tory Party donor received a Billion pound NHS contract, strange that eh. As i said, just a load of parasites who are in it to make themselves richer and the poorer even moreso

Edited by azda

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As a person of Scottish descent I can offer a unique opinion. Quite inconvenient the truth about the whole Union of 1707 it is - it really was not the Anglish that wanted the whole deal - but rather the Scots. There was a little trifle in Scots economics called the "Darien Scheme" which was a colonial project in what is now Panama in Central America. It was Scotland's attempt at a colony that failed miserably and practically bankrupted the whole country. So Scots politicians brought up the whole Act of Union idea with the English parliament - seeking in return for their political acquiescence to a United Kingdom a practical financial bailout in the form of the "Equivalent Fund" which was paid out by England to Scotland into the 1720s.

Fast forward three centuries - the whole Royal Bank of Scotland bailout by the British Treasury. Hmmm.

Autonomy - certainly. A clean break, might wanna think about that, could have some narsty consequences.

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I think the problem is how you define a country - should we have independence for the Kingdom of Strathclyde or Mercia?

Many boundaries worldwide have been drawn by politicians without due regard to geography or peoples, most of the horrors in the last hundred years have been based on ideas of nationalism and ethnicity.

Having spent time in Kosova in 2001, I'm all for systems that bind humanity together rather than defining differences

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Dave, i have to say, its England who don't want Scotland to leave, not the other way around and there is obvious reasons to that. We pay more in tax to Westminster than we receive back pro head of population yet we can afford to have free Health prescriptions and University fees (for those living and being Scottish) Weatminster and all those who reside there are just a bunch of leeches and parasites sucking the life out of the people they Govern dipping their hands in the sweetie jar.

Just a few days back i was reading that a Tory Party donor received a Billion pound NHS contract, strange that eh. As i said, just a load of parasites who are in it to make themselves richer and the poorer even moreso

Dave,

I agree that England doesn't want to Scotland to go, but I'm not at all sure that view is based on economics, more a genuine affection for Scotland. You say that you pay more taxes but that isn't accepted by the IFS which in 2012 concluded that Scotland receives about £200 more per head of population than the people in England do. To quote from their report, which I would trust far more than anything a politician says:

'Whilst uncertainty over how to allocate spending in some areas like defence might change the magnitude of the difference, it is not big enough to affect the broad conclusion that spending per head is substantially higher in Scotland.'
If you then add in the SNPs uncosted social spending promises, plus the costs of achieving independence and I'm not convinced of the financial argument.

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As I said earlier as English I'm easy either way. I do think though if there is a break it should be a complete break, non of this Salmon's want his cake and eat it. It should be a complete break, laws, finances, security the lot. In one way I would like to see the No win just to see Salmon fall on his face. To me he comes over far too smarmy for my liking, I guess it's the politician shining through.

As opposed to rich kid, bully boy, hypocrite Cameron making his lofty pronouncements from 10, Mount Olympus?

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Better than those labour oaf's :ph34r:

Complete..... disaster.

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Ah no politics or god squad chat. B)

Last time it got heated.

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I have to say I rather favour Scottish independence (although is any country truly independent these days?) for all sorts of bizarre reasons;

1) Ulster Unionism? The effect will be interesting...

2) The Union Jack? would we change it or pretend nothing had happened and carry on rather like we did when doggedly putting the fleur de lys and the legend 'Fra... Rex' on our coins two centuries after Calais had returned to France, or grabbing that extra year of 'Ind Imp' on our coins after Indian independence.

3) English National identity? As it stands we don't have one, we regard ourselves as British. When the Scots play 'Flower of Scotland' and the Welsh 'Men of Harlech' we just trot out that awful dirge of a British National Anthem that pre-supposes we all subscribe to the infallibility of the House of Windsor. Do you think we could have our own one please? Not sure an English identity will be pretty but it least it will be ours.

4) The utter confusion that multi-nationals will get themselves into - you know, the ones who refer to London, United Kingdom or whatever, when that address has never really existed.

And that's just scratching the surface. Go for it Jock, you might even do us a favour!

(hides behind the sofa...)

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Toungue in cheek, because I really don't care, but….

I'm proud to be a pathetic SouthEast 'Little Englander' increasingly isolated on the edge of the Atlantic (not sure which part borders the Atlantic though :) ), and am very happy to let the Scots decide their own fate. A clear choice between a rich kid, bully boy, hypocrite Cameron making his lofty pronouncements from 10, Mount Olympus and an over inflated bouncy castle who refuses to let born and bred Scots, who happen to currently live in Little England, have their vote.

Half a million people who are not 'Scottish nationals', but live in Scotland, get to vote. Whereas nearly a million 'Scottish nationals' who reside in the rest of the UK are denied a vote. Glad I don't have to defend that decision.

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As I said earlier as English I'm easy either way. I do think though if there is a break it should be a complete break, non of this Salmon's want his cake and eat it. It should be a complete break, laws, finances, security the lot. In one way I would like to see the No win just to see Salmon fall on his face. To me he comes over far too smarmy for my liking, I guess it's the politician shining through.

As opposed to rich kid, bully boy, hypocrite Cameron making his lofty pronouncements from 10, Mount Olympus?

Can't disagree with you there.

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...most of the horrors in the last hundred years have been based on ideas of nationalism and ethnicity.

...I'm all for systems that bind humanity together rather than defining differences

The greatest sense spoken on the matter, David... I also definitely agree with DaveG's observations on the nitty gritty of it all!

I'd say your view David is enlightened in its origin, and a refreshing change to the common view on things! :)

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