1908 Florin

[Wheelbarrow 0]

Hi

This is my first post so be nice to me!

I've attached a picture of a 1908 florin which I have in my collection but I'm puzzled as to the grading of these coins.....

I notice on the reverse that Britannia's upper body seems to lacking detail compared to my 1902 proof which I've been comparing it with, although it doesn't look 'worn'. Could this be due to a weak strike as the other areas which I would expect to wear are not (the hands, face and feet for example being well defined).

The obverse shows little wear but again doesn't seem so well struck although pretty much all the hair detail is just about there.

Any thoughts on grade, wear, strike etc. most welcome as I'm on a bit of a learning curve.

[Rob 3,002]

It's difficult to grade with the reflections and image size, but looks to be somewhere between VF & EF. Edward's hair is always low relief, so if flattened may not show up as obviously on the reverse detail for a corresponding amount of wear. If you collect modern milled, try to get a copy of Derek's (Red Riley on the forum) grading book. I don't know how many he has left though. Then you will know where to look for wear on the various issues.

[Peckris 579]

From what I can see, I would concur with Rob - perhaps NEF?

[Coinery 926]

From the images it looks cleaned to me??

Apologies if you have a different experience in-hand, I am also on a small screen phone!

Welcome aboard, get some more pictures up, are you just collecting silver?

[RLC35 288]

The ear on the Monarch looks strong, and the drapery that crosses Britannia's left leg looks strong, so it is definately a high grade coin!

[Garrett 76]

Yes welcome !

I have the 'Grading British Coins' book on my iPhone and I very much like it.

Does Derek's book go back further than 1797 ?

[Wheelbarrow 0]

Hi

Thanks for your responses so far. Hopefully this picture will come out clearer.

[Wheelbarrow 0]

...........and the obverse.

[Peckris 579]

From the images it looks cleaned to me??

Apologies if you have a different experience in-hand, I am also on a small screen phone!

Welcome aboard, get some more pictures up, are you just collecting silver?

Just flash reflection, I think.

...........and the obverse.

I think that obverse is EF - a little weak on the hair especially compared to the matte proof, but judging from everything else, a strong high grade.

[Coinery 926]

From the images it looks cleaned to me??

Apologies if you have a different experience in-hand, I am also on a small screen phone!

Welcome aboard, get some more pictures up, are you just collecting silver?

Just flash reflection, I think.

Quite possibly, but really hard to tell for me. Wheelbarrow will know better from the in-hand viewing. Bright/lustred milled silver is much, MUCH, harder to photograph, as I'm sure everyone has discovered.

[Paulus 1,942]

From the images it looks cleaned to me??

Apologies if you have a different experience in-hand, I am also on a small screen phone!

Welcome aboard, get some more pictures up, are you just collecting silver?

Just flash reflection, I think.

Quite possibly, but really hard to tell for me. Wheelbarrow will know better from the in-hand viewing. Bright/lustred milled silver is much, MUCH, harder to photograph, as I'm sure everyone has discovered.

Err .... YES!

[Wheelbarrow 0]

It doesn't appear to be cleaned. In the hand it has a slight yellow/golden tone which is spread over the whole coin though it is more toned towards the edges.

[VickySilver 775]

Certainly you would have the advantage over us having it in hand, but I still tend to concur. Firstly detail puts it IMO in the aEF category - kind of hedging - but that might get an MS45 on the graded TPG 70 point scale. The wear pattern indeed looks to be IMO cleaned though, and a soft strike on Brit's head and face as well as minimally so, and about average, for E7 bust.

I tried for many years to get a superior specimen for strike and [lack of] wear and had not much success, as was the case with the '08 shilling. Also my opinion but that is a better date, however much this series languishes.

[Wheelbarrow 0]

I'm a bit confused by Vicky Silvers post. I've just looked up the Sheldon scale and I can't work ou what MS45 is, is it the same as EF45 which according to the CGS table would equate to an average UK raw grade of NVF (or CGS 35).

[Paulus 1,942]

I'm a bit confused by Vicky Silvers post. I've just looked up the Sheldon scale and I can't work ou what MS45 is, is it the same as EF45 which according to the CGS table would equate to an average UK raw grade of NVF (or CGS 35).

I suspect VS meant EF45

[Wheelbarrow 0]

Thanks for all your help folks. I've downloaded the Suggested grading book onto my iPhone and I'm finding it excellent.

Going back to the florin I've got a 1906 in the hand now to compare it with (CGS graded 55 uin 12521). The 06 I would say looks cleaned compared to the 08- it is much shinier/whiter with surface sratching but despite this CGS didn't reject it for being cleaned, the 08 on the other hand is better toned with less wear. I'm getting more confused the more I look at Eddie florins!

[Coinery 926]

You're feeling your way through this intelligently, so don't despair!

The only thing I can add at this time, is don't get sucked in by toning! Even bleached white coins can 'look' good after a year of just sitting around a damp bedsit!

Toning is great AND king! But make sure it's not a bad coin made good! And I'm not saying your 1908 is bad, just that the comparison you make between the two coins it not necessarily valid, simply by using 'toning' as the point of reference.

Just one more thing...you are hell right that E7 florins are the devil themselves to get right!

[Wheelbarrow 0]

Cheers Coinery I'm glad you guys who know what your doing struggle with these coins as well.

The most important thing for me is this '08 florin is worth it's weight in silver for the education it's giving me and as a bonus it's a nice thing to have in my collection. Out of my three E7 florins (the 1906 and 1902 proof) the 08 is my favourite because it just looks good regardless of whether it's been cleaned or not....do any of you guys keep coins in your 'front line' collections that although you suspect they have been cleaned you still like them?

[Paulus 1,942]

Overall eye appeal is king for me, if attractive toning (which I am a massive fan of) adds to it then that is a bonus, there can also be unattractive toning (let's not go there for now!), lustre, a decent strike, an unclipped round flat flan, and all sorts of other things which contribute to overall eye appeal, which, ultimately, is in the eye of the beholder.

As far as cleaning/polishing/dipping is concerned, if it is obvious then that would normally be a negative for me, and would certainly lower the value of the coin, but wouldn't necessarily put me off hanging on to it or showing it off, a lot would depend on overall eye appeal, and the scarcity and age of the coin. Hammered coins (which are not my focus but I have some nice examples) are a rule unto themselves, each one being unique.

The biggest negatives for me are normally edge knocks, fingerprints, scratches and graffiti.

Welcome to the Forum Wheelbarrow! (interesting name and avatar, what is it?)

Edited February 1, 2014 by Paulus

[Peckris 579]

Thanks for all your help folks. I've downloaded the Suggested grading book onto my iPhone and I'm finding it excellent.

Going back to the florin I've got a 1906 in the hand now to compare it with (CGS graded 55 uin 12521). The 06 I would say looks cleaned compared to the 08- it is much shinier/whiter with surface sratching but despite this CGS didn't reject it for being cleaned, the 08 on the other hand is better toned with less wear. I'm getting more confused the more I look at Eddie florins!

Fascinating - I have an 06 in virtually the exact same condition : whitish, with faint striations from obvious buffing especially on the obverse. But even so, I quite like it and it didn't cost a fortune. (Mine is a GVF+, not sure what number that equates to.)

[Wheelbarrow 0]

Paulus- the avatar is an 70's Greek (I think) coin which the wife thinks looks like me.

Peckris I suppose GVF+ would be CGS 55ish although their numbers seem to be fairly meaningless to me. I have an 1849 godless florin which I sent to them and they graded it as 75 (unc or near so with a value of £350!!!!!) If I sold it on I honestly could only describe it as GEF.

[Paulus 1,942]

Overall eye appeal is king for me, if attractive toning (which I am a massive fan of) adds to it then that is a bonus, there can also be unattractive toning (let's not go there for now!), lustre, a decent strike, an unclipped round flat flan, and all sorts of other things which contribute to overall eye appeal, which, ultimately, is in the eye of the beholder.

As far as cleaning/polishing/dipping is concerned, if it is obvious then that would normally be a negative for me, and would certainly lower the value of the coin, but wouldn't necessarily put me off hanging on to it or showing it off, a lot would depend on overall eye appeal, and the scarcity and age of the coin. Hammered coins (which are not my focus but I have some nice examples) are a rule unto themselves, each one being unique.

The biggest negatives for me are normally edge knocks, fingerprints, scratches and graffiti.

Welcome to the Forum Wheelbarrow! (interesting name and avatar, what is it?)

As a case in point, here is my 1904:

It's not the best example or photo out there by a long chalk, and has a faint scratch on the King's neck which detracts a little. But as a type collector I only want one E7 Florin and this ticks the boxes for me in terms of eye appeal, in hand it has delicious faint red and lilac hues, I doubt that I will be upgrading in the foreseeable!

[Wheelbarrow 0]

Nice coin. Would you substitute the edge knock at 8-9 o-clock for a coin that was slightly less well defined? Also is there a scratch in Eddies neck? I know this may picky buy how much do these factors affect he appeal of these florins?

[Wheelbarrow 0]

Sorry Paulus just realised you mentioned the neck scratch - must learn to read before posting.

[Paulus 1,942]

Nice coin. Would you substitute the edge knock at 8-9 o-clock for a coin that was slightly less well defined? Also is there a scratch in Eddies neck? I know this may picky buy how much do these factors affect he appeal of these florins?

I cannot afford to strive for perfection in all my coins, for me the overall eye appeal of this coin combined with the price I paid ticks all the boxes, there is always a trade off. As someone recently commented on this Forum (Coinery perhaps?), if one's budget was unlimited how much enjoyment would there be in hunting down examples that 'do it for you', within your budget? (rhetorical!)